WEBVTT 00:00:05.957 --> 00:00:10.477 Hallo und herzlich willkommen zusammen. Wir versuchen was Neues bei unserem 00:00:10.477 --> 00:00:14.257 Podcast im Schatten der Macht, wo wir über Menschen sprechen, 00:00:14.497 --> 00:00:17.077 die am empfangenen Ende einer Übermacht sind. 00:00:17.237 --> 00:00:21.817 Und wir haben die große, große Freude, dass wir eine Frau für unseren Podcast 00:00:21.817 --> 00:00:28.057 gewinnen konnten, die in einem unserer Fälle vorkommt, nämlich Fall Nummer 4 Paolo Macchiarini. 00:00:28.437 --> 00:00:32.897 Und deshalb begrüße ich, und jetzt geht es weiter auf Englisch, Benita Alexander. 00:00:33.217 --> 00:00:37.057 Hi, Benita. It's so lovely to have you here at Im Schatten der Macht. 00:00:37.177 --> 00:00:40.437 How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. And thank you so much for having me. 00:00:40.757 --> 00:00:44.337 Thank you so much for being here. We were so curious. It was very hard to put 00:00:44.337 --> 00:00:48.137 together just a few questions, but I'll try my best. 00:00:49.577 --> 00:00:54.297 So with regard to Paolo Macchiarini's case, I think one of the questions that 00:00:54.297 --> 00:00:59.357 we came was was, was was drew you first, both as a subject for your journalism, 00:00:59.557 --> 00:01:04.477 since you are a very accomplished journalist, but also as a romantic partner? 00:01:04.637 --> 00:01:08.417 And do you think maybe that at this very initial sort of honeymoon phase, 00:01:08.537 --> 00:01:10.477 that there was power at play already? 00:01:12.336 --> 00:01:18.136 So, I think what was so attractive and appealing across the board about Dr. 00:01:18.236 --> 00:01:21.816 Paolo Macchiarini was he appeared to be completely selfless. 00:01:22.036 --> 00:01:28.676 He appeared to be this altruistic man who wanted to further medicine into the 00:01:28.676 --> 00:01:33.136 future, who was devoted to helping people who had no other hope. 00:01:33.596 --> 00:01:37.976 And he was doing something that nobody else in the world had dared to try. 00:01:38.136 --> 00:01:44.516 And so he was a rebel of sorts. He was a pioneer, and that was appealing. 00:01:44.836 --> 00:01:49.256 You know, he was willing to push boundaries, break boundaries, 00:01:49.316 --> 00:01:52.156 and kind of, you know, take medicine to the cutting edge. 00:01:52.316 --> 00:01:55.496 And the reality is we need people like that in medicine, right? 00:01:55.656 --> 00:01:59.856 Medicine does not move along if you don't have people that aren't willing to take risks. 00:01:59.856 --> 00:02:07.976 So he came across as this incredibly caring, you know, man who just wanted to 00:02:07.976 --> 00:02:11.956 devote his life to helping people. And of course, that's appealing and attractive 00:02:11.956 --> 00:02:13.096 across the board, right? 00:02:13.196 --> 00:02:18.596 It was what made him interesting medically and professionally and as the subject of a story. 00:02:18.816 --> 00:02:22.016 And it's also what part of what initially appealed to me. 00:02:22.176 --> 00:02:28.256 Now, on top of that, he's also was at least incredibly attractive, charismatic. 00:02:28.656 --> 00:02:34.256 You know, he's got that thing that a lot of, I think, narcissistic people have 00:02:34.256 --> 00:02:39.196 that and people with abuse their power have actually is this ability. 00:02:40.076 --> 00:02:43.876 You noticed him when he walked in the room. He knew how to command a room. 00:02:43.996 --> 00:02:46.476 He just had that thing, that presence. 00:02:46.976 --> 00:02:52.716 And he was very intriguing, just in all ways. 00:02:53.316 --> 00:02:57.316 Yeah. And you were already a journalist, like we said, in your own right. 00:02:57.416 --> 00:03:01.136 You had won several awards. So what I thought was interesting is that you did 00:03:01.136 --> 00:03:02.916 start off on equal footing. 00:03:03.076 --> 00:03:07.656 We talked about this in our conversation before. So it was not so much a power 00:03:07.656 --> 00:03:09.816 play just yet, or how would you describe it? 00:03:10.716 --> 00:03:14.516 No, I think at the beginning, we were both kind of at the top of our game. 00:03:14.716 --> 00:03:19.536 I had been working in network television for many years and was working with 00:03:19.536 --> 00:03:24.476 the top talent at NBC and had the top assignments. 00:03:24.676 --> 00:03:28.816 And I think that's part of what drew him to me. 00:03:29.056 --> 00:03:34.156 You know, I was a challenge, right? I was somebody that would not be easy to 00:03:34.156 --> 00:03:38.936 conquer. And there's some sort of twisted appeal in going after smart, 00:03:39.096 --> 00:03:43.716 intelligent women who are at the top of their game, because it's a challenge to them. 00:03:43.876 --> 00:03:46.916 It's some sort of sick game. I didn't know that at the time. 00:03:46.976 --> 00:03:48.596 I wouldn't realize that until much later. 00:03:48.916 --> 00:03:53.436 But at the beginning, no. I think we were both in sort of on an equal playing field. 00:03:54.316 --> 00:03:58.136 And because Paolo seems to have come across as someone who was very slick, 00:03:58.296 --> 00:04:03.296 very smooth in how he did things, how he said things, can you maybe describe 00:04:03.296 --> 00:04:08.656 the moment you realized Paolo was using his power as a respected surgeon and, 00:04:08.836 --> 00:04:14.636 like you said, someone who wants to help people to manipulate you and even colleagues of his own? 00:04:16.016 --> 00:04:22.436 I would say there wasn't a moment. It was a slow sort of realization as I gathered more information. 00:04:22.836 --> 00:04:26.716 You know, there were things that I took note of during, we were together for 00:04:26.716 --> 00:04:34.296 two years and there was an arrogance, a sort of cavalier arrogance that alarmed 00:04:34.296 --> 00:04:37.016 me at times, disturbed me at times. 00:04:37.476 --> 00:04:42.676 And this sort of slow erosion of this idea that this man was completely selfless 00:04:42.676 --> 00:04:45.676 and completely altruistic. Ich habe angefangen, dass es. 00:04:48.651 --> 00:04:53.971 A lack of empathy in some places and an arrogance and a selfishness. 00:04:54.171 --> 00:04:55.511 And it was very much about him. 00:04:55.771 --> 00:05:01.191 I did not realize initially the degree to which this sort of depravity went. 00:05:01.471 --> 00:05:06.331 But it was sort of a slow realization. And I think a lot of little red flags 00:05:06.331 --> 00:05:07.451 started going off for me. 00:05:08.211 --> 00:05:13.851 And then it wasn't until I figured out on the personal side that he was lying about our wedding. 00:05:13.851 --> 00:05:20.831 And everything was just a complete fabrication that I realized the extent to 00:05:20.831 --> 00:05:23.391 which he had fully abused his power. Yeah. 00:05:23.671 --> 00:05:28.911 So what advice would you give to other women who find themselves in similar 00:05:28.911 --> 00:05:32.911 situations where they are faced with a powerful, I'm gonna go ahead and say 00:05:32.911 --> 00:05:34.451 man and woman for now. Yeah. 00:05:34.811 --> 00:05:39.111 So who are faced with a powerful man whose word stands against theirs. 00:05:39.111 --> 00:05:43.171 So she is saying one thing, but there's this powerful man, if you will, 00:05:43.171 --> 00:05:44.571 who's saying the opposite? 00:05:46.351 --> 00:05:52.731 I think this is incredibly difficult. And I think one of the things that worries 00:05:52.731 --> 00:05:58.531 me and disturbs me still to this day is that this power dynamic inequity is 00:05:58.531 --> 00:06:02.531 still incredibly rampant and incredibly problematic. 00:06:02.931 --> 00:06:08.451 I mean, as a woman, still, unfortunately, despite all the strides we've made, 00:06:08.631 --> 00:06:13.831 and as a woman, if you stand up against a powerful man, Und du, 00:06:14.471 --> 00:06:17.491 unquestionably, ich kann sagen all die Zeit, aber immer immer, 00:06:17.811 --> 00:06:21.211 die Finger ist going zu werden. Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. 00:06:21.991 --> 00:06:25.191 Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. 00:06:25.191 --> 00:06:28.071 Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. Derjenige. 00:06:31.151 --> 00:06:35.651 Und es ist wirklich unverförtlich. Und es macht es sehr, sehr schwierig. 00:06:35.891 --> 00:06:39.971 Als eine Frau, wenn du mit jemandem in power, was, was es ist, 00:06:40.051 --> 00:06:45.151 hat man etwas, hat Es macht es sehr schwierig für Frauen zu tun. 00:06:48.408 --> 00:06:51.948 Especially, I mean, look at my case, you're dealing with a pathological liar, 00:06:52.188 --> 00:06:58.108 somebody who lied in every arena of his life, you know, who lied, 00:06:58.368 --> 00:07:01.248 who managed to pull the wool over the eyes of doctors, scientists, 00:07:01.628 --> 00:07:08.068 famous institutions, who skipped or dismissed every single ethical step you're 00:07:08.068 --> 00:07:12.428 supposed to take before doing a radical experimental medical procedure, 00:07:12.428 --> 00:07:15.548 and who lied on scientific papers. 00:07:15.548 --> 00:07:17.088 You know, the list goes on and 00:07:17.088 --> 00:07:21.088 on and on, who committed crimes and whose patients died because of him. 00:07:21.768 --> 00:07:28.608 Yet, when I come public and tell my story, the finger gets pointed at me. 00:07:28.808 --> 00:07:31.528 You know, how could she be so stupid? How could she believe that? 00:07:31.608 --> 00:07:34.228 Why didn't she do this? Why didn't she do that? She's a journalist. 00:07:34.488 --> 00:07:36.648 You know, why didn't she wake up sooner and see this? I mean, 00:07:36.668 --> 00:07:38.908 I could go on and on. And these attacks continue. 00:07:39.128 --> 00:07:42.548 And it's not as if I don't accept some culpability. 00:07:43.168 --> 00:07:48.148 Obviously, I fell in love with the man, and for a while I was blinded by love. 00:07:48.288 --> 00:07:50.188 There's a reason that saying is true. 00:07:50.448 --> 00:07:58.548 However, how do you negate the fact that people died because of him? And who cares? 00:08:00.628 --> 00:08:05.548 I'm speaking up about somebody in a position of extreme power who abused that 00:08:05.548 --> 00:08:10.508 power to get in places he shouldn't have been und die Physikale verhindern, 00:08:10.868 --> 00:08:13.088 und die Menschen zu sterben haben. 00:08:13.088 --> 00:08:16.148 So warum sind die Finger auf die Frau? Wer ist? 00:08:16.828 --> 00:08:21.268 Und wir sollten uns dankbar sein, dass Frauen sind genug genug zu sprechen. 00:08:21.548 --> 00:08:24.188 Es ist unglaublich schwer und schwierig zu sprechen. 00:08:24.788 --> 00:08:31.528 So die Worte in dem ist schwierig, aber ich denke, die Worte ist, wenn Sie können. 00:08:33.510 --> 00:08:37.190 I highly encourage you to find a way to tell your truth. 00:08:37.550 --> 00:08:41.290 Stand in your truth. If you're telling the truth, you're doing nothing wrong. 00:08:41.550 --> 00:08:44.930 You know, surround yourself with people who support you. 00:08:45.410 --> 00:08:51.410 Family, friends, you know, colleagues, whoever it is. You will need the support and lean on them. 00:08:51.630 --> 00:08:56.890 But know that if you don't speak up, this behavior perpetuates. 00:08:57.110 --> 00:09:01.070 You know, the silence is the problem, unfortunately. And they kind of count 00:09:01.070 --> 00:09:05.990 on us being quiet, because if we don't speak up, if we're too embarrassed, 00:09:06.210 --> 00:09:09.850 too scared, too humiliated to speak up, they keep getting away with it. 00:09:10.770 --> 00:09:16.790 That is so powerful what you say, that the community then will have to be the 00:09:16.790 --> 00:09:20.430 source where you get the strength and the courage indeed to do so. 00:09:20.430 --> 00:09:23.210 So, what would you say to look out for? 00:09:23.350 --> 00:09:25.810 And I know this is a tough one to isolate maybe. 00:09:26.050 --> 00:09:30.870 Whenever you think a person, male or female, might be usurping their power for 00:09:30.870 --> 00:09:37.030 grandeur, more power or profit. Are there any typical behaviors or red flags 00:09:37.030 --> 00:09:40.290 you notice, even just in your personal dealings with people like this? 00:09:40.470 --> 00:09:46.050 And then also in your professional experience. 00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:48.850 Is there something where you're like, yes, look out for this? 00:09:48.850 --> 00:09:54.930 Ich denke, viele dieser Menschen, und nicht alle, ich bin kein Experte, 00:09:54.930 --> 00:09:58.410 ich kann niemanden, aber ich denke, viele haben Narcissistic Traits. 00:09:58.490 --> 00:10:00.450 Sie sind Narcissist, Extremes Narcissist. 00:10:01.110 --> 00:10:06.330 Und die Traits across die Bedeutung sind, es gibt eine Lacken Empathy. 00:10:06.470 --> 00:10:08.470 Das ist eine große Red-Flag. 00:10:09.897 --> 00:10:14.697 Really don't care about consequences or what they do to other people or what 00:10:14.697 --> 00:10:15.837 happens to other people. 00:10:16.137 --> 00:10:20.677 And they have this sort of inflated self-importance, this sense of self-importance 00:10:20.677 --> 00:10:21.857 and this arrogance, right? 00:10:21.957 --> 00:10:25.757 Which is something I noticed very early on with Paolo. 00:10:25.877 --> 00:10:28.477 This arrogance, this feeling of superiority. 00:10:28.637 --> 00:10:33.217 I'm better than everybody else and everybody the world owes me and I know everything 00:10:33.217 --> 00:10:34.297 type of attitude, right? 00:10:34.917 --> 00:10:38.597 And no qualms at all exploiting others, 00:10:39.777 --> 00:10:45.537 Also hand in hand with that, which is kind of the polar opposite, 00:10:45.697 --> 00:10:51.017 they come across as arrogant and extremely confident, and yet they have this 00:10:51.017 --> 00:10:54.697 extreme need for admiration and for attention. 00:10:55.577 --> 00:11:01.277 Those are sort of red flags. You know, this, I, and it's hard to pinpoint one 00:11:01.277 --> 00:11:05.717 thing, but if you notice somebody that has what appears to be a lack of empathy, 00:11:05.997 --> 00:11:07.737 you know, that I think is extremely alarming. 00:11:07.937 --> 00:11:11.117 You know, all, all the things that normal human beings have, 00:11:11.237 --> 00:11:16.097 you know, guilt, remorse, regret, you know, empathy, caring for other human beings. 00:11:16.257 --> 00:11:20.177 It's just like, that's just blank. It's just not there. They are all about them. 00:11:21.377 --> 00:11:26.037 I think that's so important because in a culture that we now have where we're 00:11:26.037 --> 00:11:29.477 all on social media, it's also totally okay to be all about you. 00:11:29.557 --> 00:11:33.817 So to sort of differentiate between have you now crossed into Narcissist Central 00:11:33.817 --> 00:11:37.537 or are you just someone who's trying to get a bigger reach on social media? 00:11:37.737 --> 00:11:40.877 It's become a little bit trickier. It is hard. Do you find that also? 00:11:41.257 --> 00:11:45.317 Oh, absolutely. You know, and there's a big difference between promoting yourself 00:11:45.317 --> 00:11:49.937 and, you know, playing the social media game and being, you know, 00:11:50.077 --> 00:11:52.577 a classic narcissist and a dangerous narcissist. 00:11:52.977 --> 00:11:58.097 Yeah. So we touched on it earlier a little bit, Benita, the idea of speaking truth. 00:11:58.377 --> 00:12:03.357 So speaking truth to power has become a bit of a battle cry for many of us. Right. 00:12:03.497 --> 00:12:09.097 And so speaking up comes with tremendous risk for the victims. 00:12:09.097 --> 00:12:13.277 Like you said, there's the issue of credibility. There's the issue of re-traumatization. 00:12:13.617 --> 00:12:17.977 So often, especially in cases where a lot is at stake, the victims would rather 00:12:17.977 --> 00:12:22.097 not speak out of fear of all the repercussions that we just mentioned. 00:12:22.297 --> 00:12:25.997 So what would you say could be some of the first steps, you know, 00:12:26.097 --> 00:12:30.337 when you're still in the midst of it to find the necessary courage after you've 00:12:30.337 --> 00:12:35.617 realized someone powerful has abused you or their role in some way? Yeah. 00:12:36.859 --> 00:12:42.439 I think one thing is to acknowledge and sort of sit with and accept that it 00:12:42.439 --> 00:12:43.439 is going to be difficult. 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.319 It is going to be scary. It is going to be hard. 00:12:46.619 --> 00:12:51.259 You just know two ways about it. If you decide to speak up against somebody 00:12:51.259 --> 00:12:54.419 powerful, it's going to be hard. 00:12:54.819 --> 00:12:58.439 And you have to brace yourself for that. You really do. And I don't think I 00:12:58.439 --> 00:13:00.579 realized, I went into it kind of blindly. 00:13:00.819 --> 00:13:05.879 I was sort of hell-bent on and in such a hurry thinking, I have to expose this man. 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.159 I might be the only person, I thought at the time, because the whistleblowers 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:13.699 in Sweden hadn't come forward yet, and the documentary in Sweden hadn't come 00:13:13.699 --> 00:13:17.459 out yet, I thought I might be the only person that had the information to expose him. 00:13:17.619 --> 00:13:22.679 And I was in such a rush that I didn't take the time to think about the consequences 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.899 and what this was going to cost me. 00:13:25.959 --> 00:13:31.579 That said, and sometimes I should say there are very good reasons women, 00:13:31.579 --> 00:13:34.779 or anyone, but women in particular, can't speak up. You know, 00:13:34.939 --> 00:13:36.499 maybe children are involved or something. 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:40.899 So it's not as if everybody in this situation can speak up. 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:46.619 But if you can, and even if you're scared and terrified, quite frankly, 00:13:46.859 --> 00:13:50.599 I think the thing to remember is that in the long run, 00:13:50.859 --> 00:13:56.259 you are actually empowering yourself and empowering others by speaking up. 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:01.639 You're taking the power away from that person who abused you in whatever way. 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:07.019 Because again, if you stay silent, nothing happens, right? If you stay silent... 00:14:08.007 --> 00:14:12.727 You're sort of letting the power sit with them still. You're allowing the behavior to continue. 00:14:13.187 --> 00:14:16.467 You're choosing not to say anything because it's easier. 00:14:16.667 --> 00:14:20.207 And because obviously, you know, I mean, I think about that all the time. 00:14:20.347 --> 00:14:22.167 You know, I would have, I could have stayed quiet. 00:14:22.527 --> 00:14:26.427 I didn't have to air all this dirty public laundry and all the details with 00:14:26.427 --> 00:14:31.707 it, some of which are incredibly embarrassing and which I knew I was going to be poked fun about. 00:14:32.307 --> 00:14:36.747 But I had to set that aside because in my case, people's lives were at risk, 00:14:36.967 --> 00:14:40.827 right? And I think in the long run, it has been, and I'm speaking personally 00:14:40.827 --> 00:14:44.507 now, it has been incredibly difficult. It has been incredibly painful. 00:14:44.667 --> 00:14:48.447 It continues to be so. Every time I tell my story, I get attacked still. 00:14:48.947 --> 00:14:52.207 But I know I did the right thing. And in spite of it, I would do it all again. 00:14:52.507 --> 00:14:57.367 And so I think that's the thing to remember. It will give you a kind of power 00:14:57.367 --> 00:15:01.287 that you maybe didn't know you had. And you're reclaiming your power. 00:15:02.087 --> 00:15:06.487 They've done something wrong. They've done something to abuse their power. 00:15:06.487 --> 00:15:10.787 And by speaking up, you are reclaiming your own power and you're reclaiming 00:15:10.787 --> 00:15:15.047 the power for all victims, you know, because you will help other people by speaking up. 00:15:16.787 --> 00:15:21.547 Can I ask you one more thing, Benita, because I think a lot of women can, 00:15:21.667 --> 00:15:23.007 certainly I can relate to it. 00:15:23.367 --> 00:15:27.227 And I know a lot of women can, a lot of people who have been at the receiving 00:15:27.227 --> 00:15:28.847 end of such negative power. 00:15:28.847 --> 00:15:31.707 Was you say now that some years 00:15:31.707 --> 00:15:35.587 have gone by and you've clearly given this a lot of thought you've put a lot 00:15:35.587 --> 00:15:40.727 of inner work probably to just work your way through it what would you say is 00:15:40.727 --> 00:15:46.247 a good thing that came of this how is this information this experience informed 00:15:46.247 --> 00:15:50.327 the life after and your relationships that you have now. 00:15:52.758 --> 00:15:57.178 Well, unquestionably, um, you know, for all the negative comments I get, 00:15:57.358 --> 00:16:02.438 which I always get, they pale in comparison to all the incredibly heartfelt, 00:16:02.938 --> 00:16:08.358 beautiful comments, you know, I get from women all over the world thanking me, 00:16:08.398 --> 00:16:12.918 you know, and this is from the first moment I went public, thanking me for being 00:16:12.918 --> 00:16:17.138 brave enough to tell my truth, thanking me for being brave enough to speak up, 00:16:17.418 --> 00:16:21.258 thanking me for making them feel less alone and less stupid. 00:16:21.738 --> 00:16:26.578 Because, you know, if in the case of being conned, you know, it is embarrassing. 00:16:26.858 --> 00:16:29.578 It is humiliating to, you know, hold up your hand and say, hey, 00:16:30.078 --> 00:16:34.858 you know, this manipulative pathological liar, you know, got me, you know. 00:16:35.538 --> 00:16:40.418 But it happens in many degrees, you know, in very different situations all over 00:16:40.418 --> 00:16:43.478 the world. And women do feel too embarrassed to speak up. 00:16:43.638 --> 00:16:46.678 And so I know, you know, that I've helped people. 00:16:46.818 --> 00:16:50.218 You know, I get messages. I have thousands of them, you know, all the time. 00:16:50.218 --> 00:16:53.618 And just out of the blue, I mean, I opened my phone yesterday and there was 00:16:53.618 --> 00:16:58.098 a message from somebody in Bosnia just, you know, basically cheering me on, 00:16:58.218 --> 00:17:03.358 you know, and those messages tend to come now when I need them the most. 00:17:03.378 --> 00:17:08.178 And it's just a constant reminder that women need to unite and women need to 00:17:08.178 --> 00:17:12.118 know that it's okay, you know, that it's okay that this happened to you. 00:17:12.278 --> 00:17:16.078 It doesn't mean you're stupid by any means. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with you. 00:17:16.298 --> 00:17:19.798 You know, they are the con artists. They are the narcissists, 00:17:19.938 --> 00:17:22.278 manipulatives, sociopaths, whatever they are. 00:17:24.418 --> 00:17:27.778 And, no, I just lost my train of thought, sorry, what was it? 00:17:28.198 --> 00:17:32.438 No, that these are the positive outcomes of these messages. 00:17:32.918 --> 00:17:39.658 Yeah, and then relationship-wise, it took a while, but it has made me, I think. 00:17:42.486 --> 00:17:46.106 Ich bin ein guter Person in ein Relationship. Ich habe Lingeringen Trust Issues. 00:17:46.246 --> 00:17:48.826 Ich weiß nicht, wie Sie durch das und nicht. 00:17:50.086 --> 00:17:53.486 Aber ich bin sehr aware of sie, und ich talk über sie. 00:17:53.666 --> 00:17:59.966 Und ich denke, ich bin viel mehr Insightful und careful in thinking über wie 00:17:59.966 --> 00:18:05.686 ich die Person mit bin, wie ich reagiere, und wie ich talk über wie ich reagiere. 00:18:05.986 --> 00:18:11.506 So in ein Odd-Way, Even though I do still have trust issues that are sometimes 00:18:11.506 --> 00:18:15.686 annoying, you know, I am finally now. 00:18:15.826 --> 00:18:19.966 It took me a long time in a lovely relationship, but I think it's made it much 00:18:19.966 --> 00:18:23.306 stronger in the end. I think it will. 00:18:23.486 --> 00:18:26.986 I know it sounds so cliche, but, you know, it does make you stronger. 00:18:28.126 --> 00:18:34.526 It does. So I do want to join that army of supporters and grateful people because 00:18:34.526 --> 00:18:37.886 I think a lot of the people that I know, 00:18:38.106 --> 00:18:41.226 and certainly for myself, we've all had some sort of experience, 00:18:41.366 --> 00:18:46.306 even if it was a boss like this or doesn't have to just be romantic, round, right? 00:18:46.666 --> 00:18:53.666 And I think every time someone like you speaks up loudly, sustainably over a 00:18:53.666 --> 00:18:59.426 period of time, It really gives everybody else permission and courage to do so. 00:18:59.666 --> 00:19:03.366 So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Thank you. 00:19:03.906 --> 00:19:08.926 And yes, we will definitely be watching what you're doing going forward. 00:19:09.106 --> 00:19:10.046 Thank you again, Vanita. 00:19:10.526 --> 00:19:12.826 Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Bye. 00:19:13.526 --> 00:19:19.426 Bye. Danke an unser Team von Open Minds Media. Executive Producer Rüdiger Barth. 00:19:19.926 --> 00:19:25.566 Konzeption Peter Greve, Rüdiger Barth und Manfred Neumann. Producer Ricardia 00:19:25.566 --> 00:19:31.606 Bremley Den Schnitt machte Lilli Johansen Zusätzliche Unterstützung von Falco Schulte.