Hallo und herzlich willkommen zusammen. Wir versuchen was Neues bei unserem
Podcast im Schatten der Macht, wo wir über Menschen sprechen,
die am empfangenen Ende einer Übermacht sind.
Und wir haben die große, große Freude, dass wir eine Frau für unseren Podcast
gewinnen konnten, die in einem unserer Fälle vorkommt, nämlich Fall Nummer 4 Paolo Macchiarini.
Und deshalb begrüße ich, und jetzt geht es weiter auf Englisch, Benita Alexander.
Hi, Benita. It's so lovely to have you here at Im Schatten der Macht.
How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. And thank you so much for having me.
Thank you so much for being here. We were so curious. It was very hard to put
together just a few questions, but I'll try my best.
So with regard to Paolo Macchiarini's case, I think one of the questions that
we came was was, was was drew you first, both as a subject for your journalism,
since you are a very accomplished journalist, but also as a romantic partner?
And do you think maybe that at this very initial sort of honeymoon phase,
that there was power at play already?
So, I think what was so attractive and appealing across the board about Dr.
Paolo Macchiarini was he appeared to be completely selfless.
He appeared to be this altruistic man who wanted to further medicine into the
future, who was devoted to helping people who had no other hope.
And he was doing something that nobody else in the world had dared to try.
And so he was a rebel of sorts. He was a pioneer, and that was appealing.
You know, he was willing to push boundaries, break boundaries,
and kind of, you know, take medicine to the cutting edge.
And the reality is we need people like that in medicine, right?
Medicine does not move along if you don't have people that aren't willing to take risks.
So he came across as this incredibly caring, you know, man who just wanted to
devote his life to helping people. And of course, that's appealing and attractive
across the board, right?
It was what made him interesting medically and professionally and as the subject of a story.
And it's also what part of what initially appealed to me.
Now, on top of that, he's also was at least incredibly attractive, charismatic.
You know, he's got that thing that a lot of, I think, narcissistic people have
that and people with abuse their power have actually is this ability.
You noticed him when he walked in the room. He knew how to command a room.
He just had that thing, that presence.
And he was very intriguing, just in all ways.
Yeah. And you were already a journalist, like we said, in your own right.
You had won several awards. So what I thought was interesting is that you did
start off on equal footing.
We talked about this in our conversation before. So it was not so much a power
play just yet, or how would you describe it?
No, I think at the beginning, we were both kind of at the top of our game.
I had been working in network television for many years and was working with
the top talent at NBC and had the top assignments.
And I think that's part of what drew him to me.
You know, I was a challenge, right? I was somebody that would not be easy to
conquer. And there's some sort of twisted appeal in going after smart,
intelligent women who are at the top of their game, because it's a challenge to them.
It's some sort of sick game. I didn't know that at the time.
I wouldn't realize that until much later.
But at the beginning, no. I think we were both in sort of on an equal playing field.
And because Paolo seems to have come across as someone who was very slick,
very smooth in how he did things, how he said things, can you maybe describe
the moment you realized Paolo was using his power as a respected surgeon and,
like you said, someone who wants to help people to manipulate you and even colleagues of his own?
I would say there wasn't a moment. It was a slow sort of realization as I gathered more information.
You know, there were things that I took note of during, we were together for
two years and there was an arrogance, a sort of cavalier arrogance that alarmed
me at times, disturbed me at times.
And this sort of slow erosion of this idea that this man was completely selfless
and completely altruistic. Ich habe angefangen, dass es.
A lack of empathy in some places and an arrogance and a selfishness.
And it was very much about him.
I did not realize initially the degree to which this sort of depravity went.
But it was sort of a slow realization. And I think a lot of little red flags
started going off for me.
And then it wasn't until I figured out on the personal side that he was lying about our wedding.
And everything was just a complete fabrication that I realized the extent to
which he had fully abused his power. Yeah.
So what advice would you give to other women who find themselves in similar
situations where they are faced with a powerful, I'm gonna go ahead and say
man and woman for now. Yeah.
So who are faced with a powerful man whose word stands against theirs.
So she is saying one thing, but there's this powerful man, if you will,
who's saying the opposite?
I think this is incredibly difficult. And I think one of the things that worries
me and disturbs me still to this day is that this power dynamic inequity is
still incredibly rampant and incredibly problematic.
I mean, as a woman, still, unfortunately, despite all the strides we've made,
and as a woman, if you stand up against a powerful man, Und du,
unquestionably, ich kann sagen all die Zeit, aber immer immer,
die Finger ist going zu werden. Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige.
Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige.
Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. Du bist derjenige. Derjenige.
Und es ist wirklich unverförtlich. Und es macht es sehr, sehr schwierig.
Als eine Frau, wenn du mit jemandem in power, was, was es ist,
hat man etwas, hat Es macht es sehr schwierig für Frauen zu tun.
Especially, I mean, look at my case, you're dealing with a pathological liar,
somebody who lied in every arena of his life, you know, who lied,
who managed to pull the wool over the eyes of doctors, scientists,
famous institutions, who skipped or dismissed every single ethical step you're
supposed to take before doing a radical experimental medical procedure,
and who lied on scientific papers.
You know, the list goes on and
on and on, who committed crimes and whose patients died because of him.
Yet, when I come public and tell my story, the finger gets pointed at me.
You know, how could she be so stupid? How could she believe that?
Why didn't she do this? Why didn't she do that? She's a journalist.
You know, why didn't she wake up sooner and see this? I mean,
I could go on and on. And these attacks continue.
And it's not as if I don't accept some culpability.
Obviously, I fell in love with the man, and for a while I was blinded by love.
There's a reason that saying is true.
However, how do you negate the fact that people died because of him? And who cares?
I'm speaking up about somebody in a position of extreme power who abused that
power to get in places he shouldn't have been und die Physikale verhindern,
und die Menschen zu sterben haben.
So warum sind die Finger auf die Frau? Wer ist?
Und wir sollten uns dankbar sein, dass Frauen sind genug genug zu sprechen.
Es ist unglaublich schwer und schwierig zu sprechen.
So die Worte in dem ist schwierig, aber ich denke, die Worte ist, wenn Sie können.
I highly encourage you to find a way to tell your truth.
Stand in your truth. If you're telling the truth, you're doing nothing wrong.
You know, surround yourself with people who support you.
Family, friends, you know, colleagues, whoever it is. You will need the support and lean on them.
But know that if you don't speak up, this behavior perpetuates.
You know, the silence is the problem, unfortunately. And they kind of count
on us being quiet, because if we don't speak up, if we're too embarrassed,
too scared, too humiliated to speak up, they keep getting away with it.
That is so powerful what you say, that the community then will have to be the
source where you get the strength and the courage indeed to do so.
So, what would you say to look out for?
And I know this is a tough one to isolate maybe.
Whenever you think a person, male or female, might be usurping their power for
grandeur, more power or profit. Are there any typical behaviors or red flags
you notice, even just in your personal dealings with people like this?
And then also in your professional experience.
Is there something where you're like, yes, look out for this?
Ich denke, viele dieser Menschen, und nicht alle, ich bin kein Experte,
ich kann niemanden, aber ich denke, viele haben Narcissistic Traits.
Sie sind Narcissist, Extremes Narcissist.
Und die Traits across die Bedeutung sind, es gibt eine Lacken Empathy.
Das ist eine große Red-Flag.
Really don't care about consequences or what they do to other people or what
happens to other people.
And they have this sort of inflated self-importance, this sense of self-importance
and this arrogance, right?
Which is something I noticed very early on with Paolo.
This arrogance, this feeling of superiority.
I'm better than everybody else and everybody the world owes me and I know everything
type of attitude, right?
And no qualms at all exploiting others,
Also hand in hand with that, which is kind of the polar opposite,
they come across as arrogant and extremely confident, and yet they have this
extreme need for admiration and for attention.
Those are sort of red flags. You know, this, I, and it's hard to pinpoint one
thing, but if you notice somebody that has what appears to be a lack of empathy,
you know, that I think is extremely alarming.
You know, all, all the things that normal human beings have,
you know, guilt, remorse, regret, you know, empathy, caring for other human beings.
It's just like, that's just blank. It's just not there. They are all about them.
I think that's so important because in a culture that we now have where we're
all on social media, it's also totally okay to be all about you.
So to sort of differentiate between have you now crossed into Narcissist Central
or are you just someone who's trying to get a bigger reach on social media?
It's become a little bit trickier. It is hard. Do you find that also?
Oh, absolutely. You know, and there's a big difference between promoting yourself
and, you know, playing the social media game and being, you know,
a classic narcissist and a dangerous narcissist.
Yeah. So we touched on it earlier a little bit, Benita, the idea of speaking truth.
So speaking truth to power has become a bit of a battle cry for many of us. Right.
And so speaking up comes with tremendous risk for the victims.
Like you said, there's the issue of credibility. There's the issue of re-traumatization.
So often, especially in cases where a lot is at stake, the victims would rather
not speak out of fear of all the repercussions that we just mentioned.
So what would you say could be some of the first steps, you know,
when you're still in the midst of it to find the necessary courage after you've
realized someone powerful has abused you or their role in some way? Yeah.
I think one thing is to acknowledge and sort of sit with and accept that it
is going to be difficult.
It is going to be scary. It is going to be hard.
You just know two ways about it. If you decide to speak up against somebody
powerful, it's going to be hard.
And you have to brace yourself for that. You really do. And I don't think I
realized, I went into it kind of blindly.
I was sort of hell-bent on and in such a hurry thinking, I have to expose this man.
I might be the only person, I thought at the time, because the whistleblowers
in Sweden hadn't come forward yet, and the documentary in Sweden hadn't come
out yet, I thought I might be the only person that had the information to expose him.
And I was in such a rush that I didn't take the time to think about the consequences
and what this was going to cost me.
That said, and sometimes I should say there are very good reasons women,
or anyone, but women in particular, can't speak up. You know,
maybe children are involved or something.
So it's not as if everybody in this situation can speak up.
But if you can, and even if you're scared and terrified, quite frankly,
I think the thing to remember is that in the long run,
you are actually empowering yourself and empowering others by speaking up.
You're taking the power away from that person who abused you in whatever way.
Because again, if you stay silent, nothing happens, right? If you stay silent...
You're sort of letting the power sit with them still. You're allowing the behavior to continue.
You're choosing not to say anything because it's easier.
And because obviously, you know, I mean, I think about that all the time.
You know, I would have, I could have stayed quiet.
I didn't have to air all this dirty public laundry and all the details with
it, some of which are incredibly embarrassing and which I knew I was going to be poked fun about.
But I had to set that aside because in my case, people's lives were at risk,
right? And I think in the long run, it has been, and I'm speaking personally
now, it has been incredibly difficult. It has been incredibly painful.
It continues to be so. Every time I tell my story, I get attacked still.
But I know I did the right thing. And in spite of it, I would do it all again.
And so I think that's the thing to remember. It will give you a kind of power
that you maybe didn't know you had. And you're reclaiming your power.
They've done something wrong. They've done something to abuse their power.
And by speaking up, you are reclaiming your own power and you're reclaiming
the power for all victims, you know, because you will help other people by speaking up.
Can I ask you one more thing, Benita, because I think a lot of women can,
certainly I can relate to it.
And I know a lot of women can, a lot of people who have been at the receiving
end of such negative power.
Was you say now that some years
have gone by and you've clearly given this a lot of thought you've put a lot
of inner work probably to just work your way through it what would you say is
a good thing that came of this how is this information this experience informed
the life after and your relationships that you have now.
Well, unquestionably, um, you know, for all the negative comments I get,
which I always get, they pale in comparison to all the incredibly heartfelt,
beautiful comments, you know, I get from women all over the world thanking me,
you know, and this is from the first moment I went public, thanking me for being
brave enough to tell my truth, thanking me for being brave enough to speak up,
thanking me for making them feel less alone and less stupid.
Because, you know, if in the case of being conned, you know, it is embarrassing.
It is humiliating to, you know, hold up your hand and say, hey,
you know, this manipulative pathological liar, you know, got me, you know.
But it happens in many degrees, you know, in very different situations all over
the world. And women do feel too embarrassed to speak up.
And so I know, you know, that I've helped people.
You know, I get messages. I have thousands of them, you know, all the time.
And just out of the blue, I mean, I opened my phone yesterday and there was
a message from somebody in Bosnia just, you know, basically cheering me on,
you know, and those messages tend to come now when I need them the most.
And it's just a constant reminder that women need to unite and women need to
know that it's okay, you know, that it's okay that this happened to you.
It doesn't mean you're stupid by any means. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with you.
You know, they are the con artists. They are the narcissists,
manipulatives, sociopaths, whatever they are.
And, no, I just lost my train of thought, sorry, what was it?
No, that these are the positive outcomes of these messages.
Yeah, and then relationship-wise, it took a while, but it has made me, I think.
Ich bin ein guter Person in ein Relationship. Ich habe Lingeringen Trust Issues.
Ich weiß nicht, wie Sie durch das und nicht.
Aber ich bin sehr aware of sie, und ich talk über sie.
Und ich denke, ich bin viel mehr Insightful und careful in thinking über wie
ich die Person mit bin, wie ich reagiere, und wie ich talk über wie ich reagiere.
So in ein Odd-Way, Even though I do still have trust issues that are sometimes
annoying, you know, I am finally now.
It took me a long time in a lovely relationship, but I think it's made it much
stronger in the end. I think it will.
I know it sounds so cliche, but, you know, it does make you stronger.
It does. So I do want to join that army of supporters and grateful people because
I think a lot of the people that I know,
and certainly for myself, we've all had some sort of experience,
even if it was a boss like this or doesn't have to just be romantic, round, right?
And I think every time someone like you speaks up loudly, sustainably over a
period of time, It really gives everybody else permission and courage to do so.
So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Thank you.
And yes, we will definitely be watching what you're doing going forward.
Thank you again, Vanita.
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Bye.
Bye. Danke an unser Team von Open Minds Media. Executive Producer Rüdiger Barth.
Konzeption Peter Greve, Rüdiger Barth und Manfred Neumann. Producer Ricardia
Bremley Den Schnitt machte Lilli Johansen Zusätzliche Unterstützung von Falco Schulte.