WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.557 Hey, a short remark before we begin. If you don't speak German, 00:00:04.877 --> 00:00:06.697 skip the next few minutes of my introduction. 00:00:07.257 --> 00:00:09.517 The rest of the conversation will be in English. 00:00:16.457 --> 00:00:20.937 Na, erinnern Sie sich noch an diesen Slogan? Die Wall Street ist besetzt. 00:00:21.277 --> 00:00:24.437 Zelte im Financial District. Occupy Transparente. 00:00:24.837 --> 00:00:27.177 Und dann steht da diese einfache Rechnung im Raum. 00:00:27.657 --> 00:00:29.577 Ein Prozent und der Rest von uns. 00:00:30.277 --> 00:00:35.337 Unter dem Motto We are the 99% demonstrierten damals weltweit Menschen für mehr 00:00:35.337 --> 00:00:38.257 soziale Gerechtigkeit und eine strengere Kontrolle der Banken. 00:00:39.017 --> 00:00:43.317 Es war die Zeit nach der weltweiten Finanzkrise während des arabischen Frühlings. 00:00:43.957 --> 00:00:47.237 Überall kam das Gefühl auf, Systeme sind nicht alternativlos, 00:00:47.437 --> 00:00:48.557 man kann sie in Frage stellen. 00:00:49.657 --> 00:00:53.937 Einer der Köpfe, die hinter Occupy Wall Street steckten, war der US-amerikanische 00:00:53.937 --> 00:00:56.917 Kulturanthropologe und bekennende Anarchist David Graeber. 00:00:57.677 --> 00:01:01.877 Der Autor der viel gelesenen Bücher Schulden und Bullshitjobs bemängelte Zeit 00:01:01.877 --> 00:01:03.977 seines Lebens die herrschenden Wirtschaftssysteme. 00:01:04.837 --> 00:01:09.417 Allen voran den amerikanischen Turbokapitalismus, für den sich heute die Tech-Bro-Szene 00:01:09.417 --> 00:01:10.997 aus dem Silicon Valley so stark macht. 00:01:11.537 --> 00:01:15.937 Das eine Prozent also, das an freie Märkte und heilsbringende Technologien glaubt, 00:01:16.677 --> 00:01:19.397 aber eben auch bürokratische Eingriffe vom Staat ablehnt. 00:01:20.277 --> 00:01:25.297 Und genau hierauf lenkt Graeber sein Augenmerk. Was hat es auf sich mit der Bürokratie? 00:01:25.837 --> 00:01:28.617 Und warum ist sie allen politischen Lagern so ein Dorn im Auge? 00:01:30.574 --> 00:01:33.934 Graeber beobachtet hier etwas Wesentliches, und zwar die Tatsache, 00:01:34.074 --> 00:01:38.834 dass die Linken den Rechten leider allzu gern das Feld der Kritik am bürokratischen Staat überlassen. 00:01:38.834 --> 00:01:46.454 I think that the left has made a terrible mistake by allowing the critique of 00:01:46.454 --> 00:01:50.014 bureaucracy to be dominated by the right. I think it's been a disaster. 00:01:50.314 --> 00:01:53.014 Die Linken würden damit einen schrecklichen Fehler begehen. 00:01:53.334 --> 00:01:56.734 Denn das hieße letztlich, den Libertären und den Staatsverächtern in die Hände 00:01:56.734 --> 00:02:01.394 zu spielen, ohne das herrschende System aufzubrechen. Bureaucracy becomes a 00:02:01.394 --> 00:02:04.374 method of managing stupidity rather than challenging it. 00:02:04.514 --> 00:02:09.154 I don't think bureaucracy really makes you stupid, although it often does in practice. 00:02:09.394 --> 00:02:12.514 I don't think it ultimately does. I think that bureaucracy is a way of managing 00:02:12.514 --> 00:02:17.514 power relations, which are inherently stupid already, and the stupidity becomes multiplied. 00:02:18.134 --> 00:02:21.354 Dabei, so Graeber, ist Bürokratie nicht einfach nur ineffizient. 00:02:21.714 --> 00:02:23.814 Sie ist eine Art, Macht zu organisieren. 00:02:24.214 --> 00:02:27.754 Und wenn die Machtverhältnisse schief liegen, dann werden sie durch Bürokratie 00:02:27.754 --> 00:02:30.114 nicht etwa korrigiert, sondern stabilisiert. 00:02:30.574 --> 00:02:33.294 Man könnte sagen, die Absurdität bekommt einen Stempel. 00:02:34.194 --> 00:02:38.954 Und immer wieder hört man diesen Ärger, dieses Unverständnis von Graeber darüber, 00:02:39.374 --> 00:02:43.934 dass wir uns an Strukturen gewöhnt haben, die wir eigentlich selbst für untragbar halten. 00:02:52.729 --> 00:02:55.929 Hiermit heiße ich Sie herzlich willkommen zu der siebten Folge von Read, 00:02:56.089 --> 00:02:59.569 Read, Read, dem Podcast des Internationalen Literaturfestivals Berlin. 00:03:00.209 --> 00:03:04.709 Mein Name ist Nora Mängel, ich bin Programmmanagerin beim ILB und seit 2022 00:03:04.709 --> 00:03:08.589 vor allem für die Sachbuchvorstellungen und Diskussionsrunden verantwortlich. 00:03:09.189 --> 00:03:12.769 Das ILB ist im letzten September stolze 25 Jahre alt geworden. 00:03:13.109 --> 00:03:17.729 Und das gab uns den Anlass, einen Blick zurückzuwerfen und unser Festivalarchiv 00:03:17.729 --> 00:03:20.429 mit Tonaufnahmen aus den vergangenen zwei Jahrzehnten zu öffnen. 00:03:21.249 --> 00:03:23.709 Die Highlights kredenzen wir Ihnen hier in diesem Podcast. 00:03:26.589 --> 00:03:29.509 Dieses Mal habe ich ein Gespräch mitgebracht, das am 13. 00:03:29.709 --> 00:03:34.609 September 2016 im Haus der Berliner Festspiele stattfand und zum vierteiligen 00:03:34.609 --> 00:03:38.869 Symposium gehörte mit dem programmatischen Titel »Ungleichheit im 21. 00:03:39.109 --> 00:03:42.529 Jahrhundert – Fortschritt, Kapitalismus und globale Armut«. 00:03:44.015 --> 00:03:47.255 Auf der Bühne Wissenschaftlerinnen und Wissenschaftler, die darüber diskutieren, 00:03:47.335 --> 00:03:50.635 was soziale Ungleichheit eigentlich bedeutet, wie sie entsteht, 00:03:50.775 --> 00:03:54.495 wie sie durch Machtstrukturen verstärkt wird und vor allem, ob es noch einen 00:03:54.495 --> 00:03:57.755 Ausweg gibt oder ob wir uns längst in einer Abwärtsspirale drehen. 00:03:58.815 --> 00:04:02.755 David Graeber war eingeladen, sein damals frisch in deutscher Übersetzung erschienenes 00:04:02.755 --> 00:04:06.715 Buch mit dem Titel »Bürokratie – Die Utopie der Regeln« vorzustellen. 00:04:07.095 --> 00:04:12.115 Eine messerscharfe Analyse eines globalen Phänomens, dessen Ursprung bis ins alte Ägypten reicht. 00:04:12.875 --> 00:04:16.275 Nun könnte man meinen, das sei ein staubtrockenes Thema. Denn wer mag schon 00:04:16.275 --> 00:04:17.435 was von Bürokratie hören? 00:04:17.635 --> 00:04:21.055 Die meisten von uns sind doch froh, wenn man so wenig wie möglich seiner kostbaren 00:04:21.055 --> 00:04:22.315 Lebenszeit damit verbringt. 00:04:22.895 --> 00:04:25.835 Doch gleichzeitig steckt in der Verwaltung immer auch ein Versprechen. 00:04:26.075 --> 00:04:30.215 Die Hoffnung, dass der Staat durch Regeln transparenter wird. Oder sogar gerecht. 00:04:31.375 --> 00:04:35.415 Graeber weist hier aber, und das macht es so spannend, auf die Kehrseite unserer 00:04:35.415 --> 00:04:36.775 Bedürfnisse nach Sicherheit hin. 00:04:38.155 --> 00:04:41.715 Bürokratie resultiert aus Angst. Aus Angst vor der Unberechenbarkeit, 00:04:41.995 --> 00:04:44.055 vor einer Art Willkür und Destruktivität. 00:04:44.495 --> 00:04:49.675 Aus Angst vor Freiheit, vor Offenheit, vor den unendlichen Spielformen der Fantasie. 00:04:50.495 --> 00:04:54.495 Umso fataler erscheint Graeber die mangelnde öffentliche Aufmerksamkeit für das Thema. 00:04:55.015 --> 00:04:58.495 Die Bürokratie habe schließlich eine immense gesellschaftliche und politische 00:04:58.495 --> 00:05:02.955 Relevanz, weil sie sämtliche soziale Bereiche berührt und mittlerweile in erster 00:05:02.955 --> 00:05:04.775 Linie elitären Interessengruppen dient. 00:05:06.235 --> 00:05:10.435 Wir werden gleich hören, dass die Finanzwelt in den USA schon früh damit begann, 00:05:10.555 --> 00:05:14.995 mit dem Staatsapparat Allianzen einzugehen, um mit Bürokratie eine soziale und 00:05:14.995 --> 00:05:17.255 politische Methode totaler Herrschaft zu erschaffen. 00:05:17.715 --> 00:05:21.495 Eine Methode, in der sich öffentlicher und privater Sektor verschränken, 00:05:21.855 --> 00:05:24.795 in der Geld, Gewalt und Technologie ineinandergreifen. 00:05:25.135 --> 00:05:29.895 Ein Netz, das sich selbst stabilisiert und soziale Ungleichheit eher verstärkt als abbaut. 00:05:30.955 --> 00:05:34.035 Innovation wird in solchen Strukturen eher gebremst als befördert. 00:05:34.775 --> 00:05:38.555 Der Schaden, den laut Graeber vor allem demokratische Gesellschaften davontragen, 00:05:39.095 --> 00:05:42.895 hat auf lange Sicht das Potenzial, die gesamte Weltordnung in den Abgrund zu reißen. 00:05:44.321 --> 00:05:47.241 Philipp Grassmann, Chefredakteur bei der Wochenzeitung Der Freitag, 00:05:47.381 --> 00:05:49.201 befragt David Graeber nach dem Gegenentwurf. 00:05:49.741 --> 00:05:53.281 Als Absolvent der London School of Economics, an der auch Graeber lehrte, 00:05:53.661 --> 00:05:55.001 weiß der Moderator, dass sich 00:05:55.001 --> 00:05:57.881 das Weltwirtschaftssystem nicht einfach so auf den Kopf stellen lässt. 00:05:58.981 --> 00:06:02.801 Doch Graeber, der bei dem folgenden Gespräch zwar hörbar erkältet war, 00:06:03.121 --> 00:06:06.361 aber wie immer sehr enthusiastisch argumentierte, ist sich sicher. 00:06:07.001 --> 00:06:12.781 Das Einzige, das den Teufelskreis noch durchbrechen kann, ist der Mut zur Utopie. 00:06:14.321 --> 00:06:19.761 Mit dem plötzlichen Tod von David Graeber am 2. September 2020 verlor das 21. 00:06:20.041 --> 00:06:22.821 Jahrhundert einen seiner unkonventionellsten Denker. 00:06:23.441 --> 00:06:28.301 Uns macht dieser traurige Umstand umso stolzer, Ihnen diese Aufnahme aus unserem 00:06:28.301 --> 00:06:29.641 Archiv präsentieren zu können. 00:06:30.301 --> 00:06:32.321 Möge Sie David Graeber inspirieren. 00:06:34.761 --> 00:06:42.081 David, let's start. I was always wondering, I'm in bureaucracy, such a dry topic. 00:06:42.841 --> 00:06:48.761 Es ist überall, es interferes mit unseren Leben, aber es ist nicht die Obvious 00:06:48.761 --> 00:06:49.981 choice für ein Buch, ist es? 00:06:50.741 --> 00:06:55.721 Ja, in einem Weise, ich habe mich als ein Challenge geschrieben, 00:06:55.721 --> 00:07:01.041 ist es möglich, zu schreiben, ein Buch über die Bureaucrasse, das nicht boring ist. 00:07:01.921 --> 00:07:11.441 Und vielleicht habe ich übercompensate all die passages über Harry Potter und Star Trek und Batman. 00:07:12.081 --> 00:07:19.021 So forth and so on. Sherlock Holmes. But I think it's an important thing to think about because... 00:07:20.997 --> 00:07:25.317 The question I was really asking is, we don't talk about bureaucracy anymore. 00:07:26.117 --> 00:07:33.377 Not just because it's boring, but because there's a sense that it's almost become 00:07:33.377 --> 00:07:34.817 the water in which we swim. 00:07:35.037 --> 00:07:39.737 I start the book with, I did a Google Ngram search where you can, 00:07:39.837 --> 00:07:45.977 they have this technology where you can check any word as a percentage of all words in all books. 00:07:46.517 --> 00:07:48.917 How often is this word used in literature? 00:07:49.497 --> 00:07:53.757 And I found if you look at bureaucracy, it peaks around 1973, it goes straight up. 00:07:54.857 --> 00:07:58.137 Around 72, 73 it reaches a peak and then it goes steadily downwards. 00:07:58.497 --> 00:08:02.357 So people talk about bureaucracy less and less since the 70s. 00:08:02.477 --> 00:08:06.937 So then I thought, well, what would happen if I threw in a word like paperwork 00:08:06.937 --> 00:08:13.797 or additional documentation required or any sort of classic bureaucratic term? 00:08:13.977 --> 00:08:15.677 And in every case it went like this. 00:08:16.217 --> 00:08:18.797 It went through the ceiling. It kept going up and up and up. 00:08:18.917 --> 00:08:23.177 So, phenomena that we associate with bureaucracy keep increasing, 00:08:23.497 --> 00:08:25.997 but we talk about bureaucracy less and less. 00:08:26.237 --> 00:08:30.097 So, in a way, that was the question that I was trying to answer by writing the 00:08:30.097 --> 00:08:31.897 book, which is really a collection of essays. 00:08:32.337 --> 00:08:34.157 I kind of come at it from different angles. 00:08:35.337 --> 00:08:39.777 Why is it that as bureaucracy surrounds us as it never did before? 00:08:40.497 --> 00:08:45.297 I mean, there's no way to actually measure how – you can measure how much time 00:08:45.297 --> 00:08:50.037 we spend filling out forms, but, you know, you can't go back in time and compare. But, 00:08:50.812 --> 00:08:55.812 It seems pretty clear that there's never been a population in history that spent 00:08:55.812 --> 00:08:59.332 more of their time, more of their lives doing paperwork. 00:08:59.712 --> 00:09:01.832 Yet somehow it's not something we discussed. 00:09:02.232 --> 00:09:09.592 Yeah, you mentioned the middle of the 70s where, you know, the word bureaucracy 00:09:09.592 --> 00:09:14.272 had sort of peaked and then was never mentioned or hardly mentioned again. 00:09:15.212 --> 00:09:20.792 Why do you think people stop to think about bureaucratic structures and even 00:09:20.792 --> 00:09:22.072 did more and more paperwork? 00:09:22.232 --> 00:09:26.392 I mean, today it's amazing what kind of forms we have to fill out, 00:09:26.432 --> 00:09:28.072 even if we apply for the most simple. 00:09:28.272 --> 00:09:33.132 Yeah, the forms get larger and larger. I mean, I have a friend whose daughter 00:09:33.132 --> 00:09:38.912 was applying for a music school, and the form that she had to fill out was 30 pages long. 00:09:39.712 --> 00:09:45.152 This was not true in the past. Und ich habe mir gedacht, ich sah ein Studie, 00:09:45.172 --> 00:09:51.132 das in Amerika der average Americans spenden sechs Monate der Leben warten für 00:09:51.132 --> 00:09:51.892 die Lichts zu verändern. 00:09:53.392 --> 00:09:57.032 Und ich denke, wie viel Zeit sie spenden, die paperwork sind, 00:09:57.032 --> 00:10:01.332 es muss mehr sein. In den Jahren, in den Jahren, einfach nur in den Formen. 00:10:03.292 --> 00:10:07.472 Yet, somehow, wir nicht denken über es. Und ich denke, es ist weil wir denken 00:10:07.472 --> 00:10:09.472 über es in anderen Wissen. There's two reasons. 00:10:09.772 --> 00:10:13.432 One, we think about it when we think about the internet and computing, 00:10:13.872 --> 00:10:19.392 since most of these forums are now online, yet somehow that's not bureaucracy, 00:10:19.652 --> 00:10:22.512 that's the internet, which is supposed to be somehow liberating. 00:10:23.472 --> 00:10:31.492 And the other reason is because since the 60s and 70s, there's been a tendency 00:10:31.492 --> 00:10:34.772 to think about bureaucracy only as government. 00:10:36.292 --> 00:10:40.992 So, you can have exactly the same experience in two different offices. 00:10:41.332 --> 00:10:44.832 And in one, if it's a government office, you know, you'll think, 00:10:44.892 --> 00:10:46.552 oh my God, what ridiculous bureaucracy. 00:10:46.992 --> 00:10:51.112 And if you go to have the same thing happen to you in a private company, 00:10:51.332 --> 00:10:53.412 you just don't use that word. I remember... 00:10:54.920 --> 00:10:58.940 Just recently, there was a problem with the screen of my Apple computer. 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:03.760 I brought it to an Apple store, and I showed it to the guy. I said, 00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:06.180 look, my screen is broken. And he said, yes, your screen is broken. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:10.900 I said, well, could I have it fixed? And he said, no, you have to talk to the 00:11:10.900 --> 00:11:12.440 guy to tell you that your screen is broken. 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.340 And to get an appointment with him, you have to wake up at 8 in the morning, 00:11:18.060 --> 00:11:20.340 if you want it in less than a week. 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:23.440 And there's incredible rigmarole. Everybody knew what the problem was. 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:28.560 Und es ist ein klassisches Bürokratik-Run-Around, aber wir wollen es nicht so, wie es das. 00:11:28.680 --> 00:11:34.660 Aber die große Realität ist das, ich meine, Apple ist sehr clearly ein Privat company, 00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:37.960 aber wenn du ein Bank bist, wenn du ein Bank bist, wenn du ein Bank bist, 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:44.540 die eine der Bühne ist, die die wichtigste Karte in unserer Leben ist, 00:11:44.540 --> 00:11:47.900 ist es nicht wirklich klar, ob es öffentlich oder private ist. 00:11:48.100 --> 00:11:52.320 Die öffentlichen Bürokratien und privateen Bürokratien have kind of fused together 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:57.580 in this web where you almost can't say which it is. 00:11:58.260 --> 00:12:02.980 If you're on the phone of your bank for an hour, as I was recently trying to 00:12:02.980 --> 00:12:07.720 figure out how to get access to my account, they put in some new security protocol. 00:12:09.760 --> 00:12:13.000 It's a classic bureaucratic runaround, but if you complain to the bank, 00:12:13.160 --> 00:12:14.460 they always say the same thing. 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.420 They say, well, you know, there's all this government regulation, 00:12:17.420 --> 00:12:21.280 our hands are tied, We have to keep changing the rules ourselves all the time. 00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:25.480 So then you think, okay, there's a government which is regulating the bank. 00:12:25.640 --> 00:12:29.220 But then if you look at the process of how the regulations are actually written, 00:12:29.780 --> 00:12:31.760 most of them are written by the bank. 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:38.120 The bank will basically bribe politicians, and their lobbyists will propose legislation. 00:12:38.500 --> 00:12:42.140 Then the legislative aides and the bankers' lobbyists will sort of negotiate. 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.880 So is that public or is that private? It's public. 00:12:47.104 --> 00:12:51.704 It's silly to even ask the question. And that fusion of public and private bureaucracies, 00:12:51.864 --> 00:12:53.764 the privatisation of government services, 00:12:54.184 --> 00:12:58.024 the sort of way that more and more corporations are getting their profits through 00:12:58.024 --> 00:13:01.564 their financial divisions, which is essentially being enforced through the government, 00:13:01.704 --> 00:13:06.484 and government regulations and laws is basically designed to create debt that 00:13:06.484 --> 00:13:08.004 the corporations can enforce. 00:13:09.124 --> 00:13:12.224 Between that fusion, you can't really say what's public and private anymore. 00:13:13.504 --> 00:13:18.524 Just let me follow up on this point, which I think is very central also to your 00:13:18.524 --> 00:13:20.804 book and your argument in your book about power structures. 00:13:22.624 --> 00:13:28.904 Certainly there must have been a reason why in the 60s and early 70s those two structures merged. 00:13:29.044 --> 00:13:32.524 I mean, they didn't merge because they thought it's a good idea or let's do 00:13:32.524 --> 00:13:35.744 something different, but there's clearly a reason for it. 00:13:36.204 --> 00:13:40.464 Why? Why did they merge? It's an interesting question. It really happened in 00:13:40.464 --> 00:13:46.104 the 70s, and it began showing itself culturally more in the 80s. 00:13:47.224 --> 00:13:50.584 There's a lot of different interpretations of why it happened. 00:13:52.304 --> 00:14:00.684 I tend to like the post-workerist or autonomous Marxist arguments that capitalism 00:14:00.684 --> 00:14:02.284 isn't really a creative force, 00:14:04.264 --> 00:14:11.404 but simply sort of takes whatever is thrown against it in counter-cultural or 00:14:11.404 --> 00:14:16.564 oppositional movements and sort of does their own version of it and throws it back at you. 00:14:16.784 --> 00:14:21.204 So the argument is that in a way the anti-bureaucratic movements of the 60s 00:14:21.204 --> 00:14:26.584 were taken up, repackaged and thrown back. 00:14:27.864 --> 00:14:32.544 That's possible. Because if you look at the rebellions in the 60s when people 00:14:32.544 --> 00:14:35.464 were talking about bureaucracy, it was all about state bureaucracy, 00:14:35.464 --> 00:14:37.464 but the argument was that. 00:14:39.668 --> 00:14:43.588 If you look at social democracy, if you look at fascism and you look at communism, 00:14:43.648 --> 00:14:45.868 it's not as different as you think. 00:14:46.028 --> 00:14:51.408 It's all based on a kind of corporatist principle, which is where the bureaucracies 00:14:51.408 --> 00:14:57.068 of large organizations, corporations in the capitalist case, are sort of. 00:14:59.698 --> 00:15:04.478 Are sort of working together with the government. 00:15:05.718 --> 00:15:09.978 It was a different relation than happened later, though, because the key opposition 00:15:09.978 --> 00:15:16.838 in that period was that between finance and the sort of upper echelons of the 00:15:16.838 --> 00:15:17.778 corporate bureaucracy. 00:15:20.818 --> 00:15:23.098 Galbraith wrote about this. He talked about the tech structure. 00:15:23.298 --> 00:15:25.238 If you have a large bureaucratic corporation, 00:15:26.038 --> 00:15:32.278 making cars or perfume, or whatever it might be making, the only thing all the 00:15:32.278 --> 00:15:35.838 people working for this corporation have in common is an interest in making 00:15:35.838 --> 00:15:39.278 cars or perfume or strawberries, 00:15:39.598 --> 00:15:41.518 making more and better ones. 00:15:41.958 --> 00:15:46.318 And therefore they will necessarily tend to have a tacit alliance with each 00:15:46.318 --> 00:15:50.778 other against the actual financial sector. 00:15:51.018 --> 00:15:56.458 Now, this could lead to very pernicious results, und es tenden zu unterstützen, 00:15:56.618 --> 00:16:00.718 in America we talk about archiebunkerism, where when there was protest, 00:16:01.138 --> 00:16:06.378 the sort of proletariat tended to identify with the corporate bureaucracy against, 00:16:06.398 --> 00:16:10.358 say, students and other radicals. 00:16:10.518 --> 00:16:12.498 Now, that has changed enormously. 00:16:12.798 --> 00:16:17.778 And what seems to have happened in the 70s, above all, was a realignment of 00:16:17.778 --> 00:16:20.678 the upper echelons of corporate bureaucracies with finance. 00:16:21.438 --> 00:16:23.038 Rather than being opposed to one 00:16:23.038 --> 00:16:28.438 another, They essentially became the same people and why that happened, 00:16:28.858 --> 00:16:33.978 it must have had something to do with realignments, having to do with the sort 00:16:33.978 --> 00:16:38.178 of social upheaval of the 60s and the anti-bureaucratic movements of the time. 00:16:38.378 --> 00:16:39.758 There are various theories as to why. 00:16:41.631 --> 00:16:46.671 Ja, das ist was ich, was ich was asking. Warum hat es? Warum hat es finance 00:16:46.671 --> 00:16:49.451 und die upper echelons der Corporate Bureaucrasie sort of pulled together? 00:16:51.331 --> 00:16:55.371 Well, there's different ideas about it. So, people like Giovanni Arrighi have 00:16:55.371 --> 00:16:59.291 argued that any sort of major capitalist power will have two phases, 00:16:59.551 --> 00:17:03.291 a sort of industrial phase, and then it'll go to a financialized phase. 00:17:03.671 --> 00:17:08.451 You know, this happened with Italy and the Iberian Empires. It happened with 00:17:08.451 --> 00:17:11.771 the Dutch Republic. It happened with Britain. and now it's happening with America. 00:17:13.191 --> 00:17:17.551 But the financial period tends to also be the military period. 00:17:17.691 --> 00:17:23.171 And I think that that shouldn't be underestimated. 00:17:23.431 --> 00:17:29.811 People talk about American and British financial capitalism as a sort of alternative 00:17:29.811 --> 00:17:33.531 to more industrial-based, as if you have a choice of doing one or the other. 00:17:33.711 --> 00:17:34.891 But everybody doesn't have that 00:17:34.891 --> 00:17:39.911 choice. The only people who have a choice of... Excuse me. I have a cold. 00:17:40.891 --> 00:17:45.111 The only people who really have a choice in that matter are the people who are 00:17:45.111 --> 00:17:47.291 the dominant military powers. 00:17:48.831 --> 00:17:55.771 So I think that it coincides with a shift of what was happening in America itself 00:17:55.771 --> 00:17:59.291 as other countries became more popular. 00:18:00.446 --> 00:18:04.366 Und industrial competitors, America shifted to a more military strategy. 00:18:04.646 --> 00:18:09.866 And that was reflected internally by class changes within the ruling class, 00:18:09.966 --> 00:18:17.626 where you have people who had been the sort of top corporate bureaucrats reimagining 00:18:17.626 --> 00:18:18.986 themselves as financiers. 00:18:19.246 --> 00:18:23.066 The financial classes themselves became bureaucratized, which you have hedge 00:18:23.066 --> 00:18:26.206 funds and all these sort of new forms of financial innovation. 00:18:26.206 --> 00:18:28.146 And these people start intermarrying. 00:18:28.366 --> 00:18:30.786 They start careers, start going back and forth So, eventually, 00:18:30.906 --> 00:18:32.226 they become the same people. 00:18:32.546 --> 00:18:35.166 And that also, and this is one thing I talk about in the book, 00:18:35.226 --> 00:18:37.486 which I think is involved in this. 00:18:39.166 --> 00:18:45.386 Comes along with a shift in technological development, which I think is often 00:18:45.386 --> 00:18:48.726 seen as something to happen sort of all of its own accord, but it wasn't. 00:18:49.666 --> 00:18:52.666 The decline of the Soviet Union as a technological competitor, 00:18:52.986 --> 00:18:54.326 the end of the space race. 00:18:54.506 --> 00:19:00.166 There's a huge shift of investment in research away from the sort of space-age 00:19:00.166 --> 00:19:04.186 technologies and more towards stuff like, well, information technology, 00:19:04.366 --> 00:19:09.206 which is, of course, entirely appropriate to this sort of new financial direction. 00:19:10.366 --> 00:19:14.786 Military, medical, and informational. Okay, yeah. 00:19:15.586 --> 00:19:20.766 But what were, I mean, you've described the reasons for the merger between the 00:19:20.766 --> 00:19:23.826 two, let's say, interest groups. 00:19:25.026 --> 00:19:30.586 Aber mit der Gesellschaft als ein Was waren die Die Verkaufschen von der Entwicklung 00:19:30.586 --> 00:19:32.606 Ich denke, es war ein langer Zeit, 00:19:33.906 --> 00:19:41.866 Politiker You could only do this kind of thing once you have a political coalition 00:19:41.866 --> 00:19:46.886 which essentially brings at least a substantial amount of the middle class along with you, 00:19:47.586 --> 00:19:52.086 So I think if you look back at what happened especially in the 1980s, 00:19:53.426 --> 00:19:59.826 unter Thatcher in England, unter Reagan, und generally across the world, 00:19:59.906 --> 00:20:01.266 similar things are happening in Japan. 00:20:05.190 --> 00:20:11.890 There's cultural shifts which really encourage everyone to see the world from 00:20:11.890 --> 00:20:13.510 the perspective of finance. 00:20:15.610 --> 00:20:18.330 I remember at the time, because I was very young at the time, 00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:21.770 but I was paying attention, that you'd notice these sudden changes. 00:20:21.970 --> 00:20:28.510 And one of the ones that really struck me was when all news reports on TV suddenly 00:20:28.510 --> 00:20:33.330 started having stock quotes floating along the bottom of the screen. 00:20:33.570 --> 00:20:39.570 In the 70s you did not see that, certainly not in the 60s, starting in the 80s, 00:20:39.630 --> 00:20:40.510 starting really under Reagan. 00:20:40.730 --> 00:20:44.950 And this was right around the time that newspapers got rid of their labor reporters. 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:48.810 The concept is totally exotic now. You used to have these things called labor reporters. 00:20:51.470 --> 00:20:56.330 So work is not news, that's not interesting. And it was all the time of mergers 00:20:56.330 --> 00:20:59.770 and acquisitions were big stories and people were being celebrated for how many 00:20:59.770 --> 00:21:00.830 workers they could fire. 00:21:02.530 --> 00:21:07.910 Part of that whole process of the financial and corporate elites kind of coming together. 00:21:09.862 --> 00:21:15.062 Suddenly, there's this assumption that if you are interested enough in world 00:21:15.062 --> 00:21:19.222 events that you are watching the international news, well, obviously you are 00:21:19.222 --> 00:21:22.762 an investor, or really ought to be, and should be looking at the world from 00:21:22.762 --> 00:21:23.902 the perspective of an investor. 00:21:24.142 --> 00:21:26.902 I noticed that even news reports, you read the New York Times, 00:21:27.502 --> 00:21:30.082 they would talk about international events. 00:21:32.422 --> 00:21:37.822 And it wasn't even that they're assuming that you are a capitalist in your orientation. 00:21:38.442 --> 00:21:41.442 They're assuming that you actually are a capitalist. It would be like unrest 00:21:41.442 --> 00:21:43.582 in Brazil. How might this affect your investments? 00:21:45.122 --> 00:21:47.342 And, of course, there were moves to make sure that everyone, 00:21:47.762 --> 00:21:53.122 for example, privatization, various forms of retirement investment. 00:21:53.482 --> 00:21:57.642 They were, in fact, encouraging everyone more and more to become investors. 00:21:57.822 --> 00:22:00.122 But even more, they were encouraging everyone to think like investors. 00:22:01.082 --> 00:22:06.802 Right. I mean, now you've described the sort of global structures of bureaucracy. 00:22:06.802 --> 00:22:12.722 I mean, starting with the United States, but arguing that the whole structure 00:22:12.722 --> 00:22:17.662 of international trade relations really is merged with the financial industry. 00:22:18.222 --> 00:22:22.762 In your book, you're also dealing with the domestic structure of powers. 00:22:22.922 --> 00:22:29.382 Yes. What I thought was really interesting, when you were talking about police, 00:22:29.582 --> 00:22:34.442 because police is something that we regard actually as someone who saves us 00:22:34.442 --> 00:22:38.842 against crimes, who takes care about us in a dangerous situation, 00:22:38.842 --> 00:22:40.422 we call them if we feel unsafe. 00:22:41.002 --> 00:22:45.482 Your concept is quite different. Yes, well, that's already that when you say 00:22:45.482 --> 00:22:49.082 we, that's the ultimate sort of middle class perspective. 00:22:49.082 --> 00:22:52.262 In fact, when I was trying to figure out what middle-class means, 00:22:52.982 --> 00:22:54.402 I certainly had this insight, 00:22:55.882 --> 00:22:58.862 people were talking about the middle class in Pakistan, I was in some academic 00:22:58.862 --> 00:23:00.882 talk, they said, well, they don't really care about democracy, 00:23:01.062 --> 00:23:04.542 they care about rule of law. And I realized that. 00:23:06.163 --> 00:23:09.883 The middle class are people, the ultimate definition globally of who is middle 00:23:09.883 --> 00:23:15.643 class is if you see a policeman, do you feel more safe or less? 00:23:17.003 --> 00:23:20.743 That's why most people in, say, Nigeria or Pakistan don't feel they're middle 00:23:20.743 --> 00:23:23.243 class. They see a cop, they're probably more scared than not. 00:23:25.043 --> 00:23:28.183 But most people in, I don't know, Holland will say they are. 00:23:28.823 --> 00:23:31.103 And America used to. It's changed. 00:23:33.383 --> 00:23:35.883 At least if you're black. Well, in black you never did. 00:23:37.903 --> 00:23:44.063 Aber, you know, now if you're like, some RoboSign mortgage is like, 00:23:44.183 --> 00:23:47.663 you know, taking your house away and the cops are there to kick you out and 00:23:47.663 --> 00:23:49.603 not to arrest the person who illegally evicted you, 00:23:49.943 --> 00:23:52.923 you know, you don't feel very middle class no matter what your income is, you know. 00:23:53.443 --> 00:23:56.703 Thus, all of a sudden in America, for the first time actually, 00:23:56.963 --> 00:23:58.543 most people don't say they're middle class. 00:23:58.543 --> 00:24:03.963 But when you're talking about police, well this is one of, I was trying to look 00:24:03.963 --> 00:24:09.263 at the various cultural changes that have happened since the 70s and 80s when 00:24:09.263 --> 00:24:12.783 you have this shift to a financialized system and. 00:24:14.427 --> 00:24:18.047 Und das Füge der Public- und Privat-Bürocracke ist, das kommt mit dem. 00:24:18.187 --> 00:24:20.007 Und eine von ihnen ist securitization. 00:24:20.767 --> 00:24:24.467 Again, das ist etwas, was ich über die Zeit, über die Zeit, wenn ich um, 00:24:24.627 --> 00:24:27.667 wir haben, wir haben, wir haben, das Beachplatz, um, Fyre Island, 00:24:27.747 --> 00:24:30.407 und ich würde allsummern da. 00:24:30.627 --> 00:24:34.387 Und die zwei Dinge, ich, you know, so characterize this, well, 00:24:34.487 --> 00:24:35.967 da sind keine Fahrzeuge, da sind keine Fahrzeuge, da sind keine Fahrzeuge, 00:24:36.147 --> 00:24:39.247 aber die Sache, die ich, you know, so characterize meine Erfahrung in dieser 00:24:39.247 --> 00:24:41.747 Island, mehr als nichts anderes, war, dass du nicht mehr hast, 00:24:41.747 --> 00:24:43.287 to wear shoes and there are no police. 00:24:44.567 --> 00:24:47.747 You never saw, I mean every now and then there'd be a cop who'd come on a scooter 00:24:47.747 --> 00:24:49.767 on the beach and all the kids would be, hey, it's a policeman. 00:24:50.847 --> 00:24:55.687 But nowadays you go there and there's private security on the ferry and there's 00:24:55.687 --> 00:24:58.127 all these big guys in uniforms and there's cops everywhere. 00:24:58.407 --> 00:25:02.047 Everywhere you go in America there's police now and there's police in places 00:25:02.047 --> 00:25:05.007 where, or security in places you never would have imagined. 00:25:05.927 --> 00:25:11.967 Playgrounds or hospitals. There's guys with weapons wandering around. It's very disturbing. 00:25:13.167 --> 00:25:17.507 And then you have these buildings like stores. 00:25:17.807 --> 00:25:22.707 I noticed this, that more and more stores are disappearing and being replaced by local banks. 00:25:23.107 --> 00:25:28.467 It used to be that you'd have banks almost look like temples in America. 00:25:28.687 --> 00:25:32.427 You'd have these buildings of these sort of pillars and they'd look like Greek 00:25:32.427 --> 00:25:35.207 or Roman, usually more Roman, temples. 00:25:36.747 --> 00:25:41.747 And there'd be one every 10 blocks or so, now there's one every 2 blocks. 00:25:41.947 --> 00:25:45.507 And it's just like, looks like pure virtual reality. It looks like one of those 00:25:45.507 --> 00:25:51.247 crude 1990s, you know, sort of space, artificial spaces come to life. 00:25:51.387 --> 00:25:55.147 And there's nothing in there except money and guns. 00:25:55.447 --> 00:25:58.627 You know, there's always security guys sitting around with weapons and there's 00:25:58.627 --> 00:25:59.967 computer screens and that's it. 00:26:00.127 --> 00:26:03.967 You know, there's these stores selling abstraction guarded by people with weapons. 00:26:04.087 --> 00:26:04.887 And they're everywhere. 00:26:06.478 --> 00:26:11.198 So, I thought about this, and it's a very interesting thing about police in general. 00:26:12.378 --> 00:26:15.598 What are police? Well, police are basically bureaucrats with weapons. 00:26:16.618 --> 00:26:20.498 I became interested in this when I wrote Ethnography of Direct Action. 00:26:20.698 --> 00:26:24.718 I was involved in a lot of anarchist movements, and we thought a lot about police 00:26:24.718 --> 00:26:27.018 and what they actually do. 00:26:27.218 --> 00:26:30.518 So, I started reading police sociology, because you're always trying to understand 00:26:30.518 --> 00:26:33.598 what the police must be thinking if you're an anarchist. It's always a great mystery. 00:26:35.418 --> 00:26:42.498 I'm sure the police feel the same way about us but anyway so you know I was 00:26:42.498 --> 00:26:45.538 reading all this police sociology and the thing which I discovered which was 00:26:45.538 --> 00:26:47.678 very interesting is that, 00:26:49.938 --> 00:26:55.998 almost about at most 5 to 10 percent of what police do every day because you 00:26:55.998 --> 00:26:59.418 know the sociologists would go and like ride around with police and follow them 00:26:59.418 --> 00:27:03.638 measure how much time they spend on different activities Just 5-10% of what 00:27:03.638 --> 00:27:05.618 police do have anything to do with crime. 00:27:08.918 --> 00:27:12.998 About half of what they do is paperwork, filling out forms. But even when they 00:27:12.998 --> 00:27:16.998 do intervene, it's almost never a criminal matter. It's very unusual. 00:27:17.918 --> 00:27:21.738 It's usually a violation of regulation. 00:27:22.078 --> 00:27:27.338 Who can stand where? Who can smoke water, eat water, sell water, play music? 00:27:27.598 --> 00:27:33.578 All this sort of public stuff about regulating die Mikrodynamik der Behaviour, 00:27:33.638 --> 00:27:35.958 das ist nicht criminal, es ist Regulation. 00:27:36.158 --> 00:27:37.798 So, mostly kann man einen Ticket geben. 00:27:39.438 --> 00:27:44.798 Und every now and then, ein criminal matter will come in. Aber die Sache ist, natürlich, 00:27:46.349 --> 00:27:50.229 They can bring the potential of violence. So when we think about police in the 00:27:50.229 --> 00:27:55.989 abstract, we imagine, you know, there is an incident of violence and the cops come to stop it. 00:27:56.729 --> 00:28:02.129 They fight crime. Crime is assumed to be violent. In fact, 95% of the time it's the other way around. 00:28:02.329 --> 00:28:06.749 It's a situation where there's no possibility of violence, but the police bring one. 00:28:07.229 --> 00:28:09.949 You know, so I always say, like, if somebody punches someone else, 00:28:10.449 --> 00:28:12.889 generally speaking, the police will not become involved. 00:28:13.609 --> 00:28:18.409 Like, they're only likely to become involved if someone so injured they end 00:28:18.409 --> 00:28:24.069 up in the hospital or die because then there's paperwork and then the police have to write a report. 00:28:25.709 --> 00:28:30.269 But in fact, most instances of violence, police don't become involved. 00:28:30.729 --> 00:28:34.309 However, try driving down the street in the car without a license plate. 00:28:35.649 --> 00:28:39.249 They'll be there instantly and they'll order you to do things and if you don't 00:28:39.249 --> 00:28:40.589 do them, they can beat you up. 00:28:40.629 --> 00:28:46.609 And as we learn in America, where the level of violence they can use on most 00:28:46.609 --> 00:28:51.109 people in this room is fairly limited, but say if you're a black person, very different. 00:28:51.329 --> 00:28:57.609 So they can actually kill you for selling unlicensed cigarettes or something 00:28:57.609 --> 00:28:59.769 like that and bring even the threat of death. 00:29:00.029 --> 00:29:05.789 So in fact, the role of police is almost exactly the opposite of what we think they are. 00:29:06.089 --> 00:29:08.869 And increasingly in America, they've also become a source of revenue. 00:29:10.749 --> 00:29:14.329 Recently, there was a police strike in New York. I don't know if news of that got here. 00:29:14.829 --> 00:29:18.829 Sie waren sehr angre, die Black Lives Matter protesten und Dinge wie das. 00:29:18.949 --> 00:29:21.789 So sie sind auf eine Strecke. Aber sie sind auf eine sehr interessante Form 00:29:21.789 --> 00:29:25.389 von Strecke. Basically, sie haben nur die 5% der Arbeit, das zu tun, 00:29:25.409 --> 00:29:25.589 mit der Kronprinzipien. 00:29:26.419 --> 00:29:30.879 So they didn't do any paperwork. Yeah, they refused to do any paperwork or any 00:29:30.879 --> 00:29:34.659 arrests for things like selling unlicensed cigarettes or loitering. 00:29:34.819 --> 00:29:40.879 And as a result, crime rates didn't change at all, but city revenues plummeted. 00:29:40.979 --> 00:29:44.919 Because it turns out that huge amounts of money that come into the city is just 00:29:44.919 --> 00:29:46.439 basically police shaking people down. 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:53.199 Right. So, I mean, would you say that bureaucratic structures are simply a nuisance 00:29:53.199 --> 00:29:59.559 and are something that are mainly to feed themselves, 00:29:59.919 --> 00:30:04.019 to be there for itself's sake, but are not necessary? I mean, 00:30:04.099 --> 00:30:05.799 after all, you're an anarchist. 00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:08.959 You don't believe in state structures, do you? I don't believe in state structures. 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:12.399 Well, I mean, I think it would be possible to create a world where we didn't 00:30:12.399 --> 00:30:15.599 have to have bureaucracies of violence. 00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:21.439 You know, when I talk about anarchism, what I really mean, anarchists are not 00:30:21.439 --> 00:30:24.179 against organization. In fact, you could say that they believe in organization 00:30:24.179 --> 00:30:28.159 more than anybody because they believe you don't have to force people to be organized. 00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:30.899 You can do that in a free society. 00:30:31.399 --> 00:30:37.239 But the idea of a free society is any form of organization which would not require 00:30:37.239 --> 00:30:38.659 the ultimate threat of force. 00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:43.599 Basically, any kind of organization you can maintain, even in the knowledge 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:47.199 that nobody can pick up the phone and bring in some guy with a stick and a gun 00:30:47.199 --> 00:30:51.699 to say, shut up and do what you're told, if they have to. 00:30:51.699 --> 00:30:54.839 So I think it's a very interesting question. 00:30:55.139 --> 00:31:00.699 If you have a self-organized, truly free society, how many impersonal mechanisms 00:31:00.699 --> 00:31:03.679 of the sort we identify with bureaucracy would be necessary? 00:31:03.919 --> 00:31:05.519 I think you'd need some, you know. 00:31:07.099 --> 00:31:10.479 But I think this is the kind of thing that we need to figure out. 00:31:10.639 --> 00:31:12.879 So I want to make a distinction between. 00:31:14.617 --> 00:31:19.497 The sort of impersonal forms of organization and impersonal forms of organization 00:31:19.497 --> 00:31:22.357 that operate through the ultimate threat of violence. 00:31:23.437 --> 00:31:28.817 It's a very interesting question, what could work without violence and what 00:31:28.817 --> 00:31:32.797 couldn't, and how they would have to change in order to do so. 00:31:34.137 --> 00:31:37.877 Well, cutting back bureaucracy is also, it seems, 00:31:38.837 --> 00:31:44.707 very important for us, like neoliberal political parties Sie sagen, 00:31:44.767 --> 00:31:51.507 wir haben zu viel Bürokratie, cut es zurück, leave es zu den freien Markt oder 00:31:51.507 --> 00:31:52.607 den freien Gesellschaften. 00:31:52.927 --> 00:31:57.127 Ist es schwierig, von Ihrer Sicht, von der Sicht, von der Sicht, 00:31:57.127 --> 00:32:02.407 von der Sicht, zu articulate eine constructive Kritik an Bürokratie? 00:32:02.447 --> 00:32:05.667 Weil es immer über conservative Politik ist. 00:32:06.987 --> 00:32:10.727 Well, conservatives also claim to be for freedom and motherhood, 00:32:10.847 --> 00:32:14.647 und das heißt, ich habe zu beherrschst, dass das. Hey, hey. 00:32:17.587 --> 00:32:24.787 I think that the left has made a terrible mistake by allowing the critique of 00:32:24.787 --> 00:32:28.707 bureaucracy to be dominated by the right. I think it's been a disaster. 00:32:31.397 --> 00:32:36.957 If you think about it, what it passes for the acceptable left, 00:32:37.097 --> 00:32:41.377 which is hardly left at all by 20th century standards, 00:32:43.397 --> 00:32:49.057 essentially it operates through a fusion of bureaucracy and the market. 00:32:50.657 --> 00:32:54.697 Anybody who's an academic sees this all the time. 00:32:54.917 --> 00:32:59.037 They try to come up with a balance between market and bureaucratic forms of 00:32:59.037 --> 00:33:01.137 organization. Es ist unerhörbar. 00:33:01.957 --> 00:33:07.617 Es ist über die least attractive politische Position das Sie können Sie können. 00:33:07.897 --> 00:33:10.317 Es ist amazing, diese Leute zu geteilt. Es ist einfach, diese Leute zu einfachen. 00:33:11.457 --> 00:33:15.117 Let's embrace both der Bureaucrasse und der Markt. Whereas die Right-Wing, 00:33:17.037 --> 00:33:19.217 you could say, ist es in zwei parts. 00:33:19.497 --> 00:33:21.677 Jetzt haben Sie die Libertarian-Rite, 00:33:23.837 --> 00:33:26.857 die lieben die Markt, aber sie haben die Kritik der Bureaucrasse. 00:33:27.217 --> 00:33:31.577 Dann haben Sie die Fascist-Rite, Nationalist right, who. 00:33:34.937 --> 00:33:38.257 At least they have a critique of the market. I mean, you know, 00:33:38.477 --> 00:33:42.817 they're all for the welfare state. They're just racists. They just want it just for white people. 00:33:44.377 --> 00:33:48.317 And the left has neither in a way. 00:33:49.317 --> 00:33:53.857 I think that one of the reasons I wrote the book is I think the space for a 00:33:53.857 --> 00:33:58.337 real left-wing critique of bureaucracy is wide open. 00:33:58.637 --> 00:34:04.537 It's fairly obvious where it would come from because bureaucracy becomes a method 00:34:04.537 --> 00:34:07.077 of managing stupidity rather than challenging it. 00:34:07.197 --> 00:34:11.877 I don't think bureaucracy really makes you stupid, although it often does in practice. 00:34:12.177 --> 00:34:15.217 I don't think it ultimately does. I think that bureaucracy is a way of managing 00:34:15.217 --> 00:34:20.217 power relations which are inherently stupid already and the stupidity becomes multiplied. 00:34:20.597 --> 00:34:26.017 It's essentially a way of managing situations of structural violence in an equality 00:34:26.017 --> 00:34:30.297 which doesn't actually address their foundations and then comes to partake of it. 00:34:30.377 --> 00:34:33.117 And this is why people came to dislike the welfare state. 00:34:35.322 --> 00:34:40.142 Es partook of the stupidity it supposedly addressed. I could go into detail 00:34:40.142 --> 00:34:43.922 about why I think that's the case, but I think that, let me give an example. 00:34:44.262 --> 00:34:51.702 It strikes me that at least half the bureaucrats employed in the United Kingdom 00:34:51.702 --> 00:34:57.262 and the United States nowadays, their basic role seems to be to make poor people 00:34:57.262 --> 00:34:58.442 feel bad about themselves. 00:34:58.742 --> 00:35:03.362 They're constantly monitoring people, assessing them, finding them wanting in 00:35:03.362 --> 00:35:06.462 a thousand different ways. I know some people who have these jobs, 00:35:06.542 --> 00:35:10.382 they hate them, it's miserable to have to do, to decide whether someone's up 00:35:10.382 --> 00:35:13.142 to taking care of their own children or so forth and so on. 00:35:13.522 --> 00:35:18.982 And they don't like it. Obviously the people being surveilled and monitored don't like it. 00:35:19.182 --> 00:35:25.242 And yet somehow there's a huge space for potential left-wing. 00:35:27.826 --> 00:35:29.706 Das ist nicht so, dass sie nicht so, weil sie sich nicht so, 00:35:29.706 --> 00:35:31.526 weil sie müssen, weil sie sie nicht so, wie sie zu defend, auf principle. 00:35:32.846 --> 00:35:38.146 So, wenn ich denke, sagen Sie, das ist ein Wissen, das ist die beste Argument. 00:35:38.246 --> 00:35:40.626 Es ist wie ein left-winger, anti-bureaucratik position. 00:35:40.846 --> 00:35:45.866 Wenn ihr euch alle einen equalen Amgen gegeben habt, dann würden sie nicht alle 00:35:45.866 --> 00:35:48.886 die Millionen Menschen, die sich um die Leute zu sitzen und monitor und monitor 00:35:48.886 --> 00:35:51.686 sie und sehen, ob sie das ist, ob sie das oder das sind. 00:35:52.326 --> 00:35:55.706 So, you know, like all those guys who are now sitting in offices monitoring 00:35:55.706 --> 00:35:59.786 the poor could go off and, you know, form a band or write poetry or something 00:35:59.786 --> 00:36:02.246 because they'd get basic income too. They'd be happier. 00:36:03.046 --> 00:36:05.766 The people they're monitoring would be much happier. But, you know, 00:36:05.786 --> 00:36:08.206 no one ever proposes it in that light. I mean, it would be a beautiful anti, 00:36:08.626 --> 00:36:10.346 you know, left-wing anti-bureaucratic position. 00:36:12.426 --> 00:36:13.226 Yes, sure. 00:36:15.586 --> 00:36:19.486 Actually, I wanted to talk about another aspect of your book right now, 00:36:19.486 --> 00:36:24.426 and that is technological change, or better, the lack of it. 00:36:24.706 --> 00:36:31.646 Yes. I mean, we've now been talking about structures and the structure of power, 00:36:31.686 --> 00:36:36.826 but your assertion in your book is that bureaucracy is also running the inventiveness, 00:36:36.946 --> 00:36:38.546 and you asked a rather odd question, 00:36:39.366 --> 00:36:43.206 why aren't there not yet flying cars? Yeah. Why not? 00:36:43.866 --> 00:36:47.966 Yeah, this is something that had been bothering me for years, 00:36:47.966 --> 00:36:49.986 And I wrote an article in The Baffler. 00:36:50.146 --> 00:36:52.526 It's an American literature... 00:36:53.057 --> 00:37:00.737 Left-wing, literary, satirical magazine, which had the rare wisdom to let me 00:37:00.737 --> 00:37:02.577 do anything I wanted. It was great. 00:37:03.697 --> 00:37:05.897 I finally found it. Always the best. Yeah. 00:37:07.237 --> 00:37:10.737 You know, they would say, oh, you can write whatever you want. And I would say, really? 00:37:11.657 --> 00:37:16.657 They actually meant it. So sort of all these things that had been like drunken 00:37:16.657 --> 00:37:18.897 rants, I would give at parties for much of my life. 00:37:19.037 --> 00:37:21.177 You know, I'd never imagined anyone would ever publish. 00:37:21.877 --> 00:37:25.237 They let me do it. And some of them turned out quite good. 00:37:26.257 --> 00:37:27.617 Maybe some others, not so much. 00:37:28.897 --> 00:37:32.937 But one that really sort of struck a chord was this thing about technology. 00:37:33.197 --> 00:37:37.737 Because, you know, I was, give away my age here, I was, what was I, 00:37:37.817 --> 00:37:39.897 seven years old when they landed on the moon. 00:37:40.737 --> 00:37:45.577 And I remember, you know, all the things that we imagined we'd have by now. 00:37:46.297 --> 00:37:49.737 And there was a list, you know. Oh, there was the teleportation, 00:37:49.917 --> 00:37:51.537 there was the anti-gravity devices, 00:37:51.857 --> 00:37:55.377 there was the, you know, immortality drugs and the clones and the robots and 00:37:55.377 --> 00:37:59.377 the, you know, robots that would, like, do your housework and walk the dog, 00:37:59.637 --> 00:38:02.277 you know, space bases and warp drives. 00:38:02.457 --> 00:38:05.537 And, you know, we didn't assume we'd get all of that, but it seemed reasonable 00:38:05.537 --> 00:38:07.537 to assume we'd get about half, you know. 00:38:09.225 --> 00:38:12.645 And if you look at it, historically, that's not an unreasonable assumption. 00:38:12.705 --> 00:38:16.565 If you look at people in 1900 and the kind of science fiction they were reading 00:38:16.565 --> 00:38:20.585 in 1900 and the kind of things they expected that they would have by 1950, 00:38:21.325 --> 00:38:22.485 they did. They got about half. 00:38:23.725 --> 00:38:26.385 They didn't get the time machine, but they got the submarines and the rocket 00:38:26.385 --> 00:38:30.585 ships. So, you know, instead we don't get any of them. 00:38:30.965 --> 00:38:33.825 None. Zero. I mean, everybody says, oh, the Internet, you know, 00:38:33.925 --> 00:38:40.425 computers. Und ja, aber sie expected, wie Sie sehen, 2001, wie 15 Jahre alt? 00:38:41.965 --> 00:38:44.825 Sie bereits haben computers, Sie können eine Gespräche mit haben. 00:38:44.845 --> 00:38:46.105 Wir haben nicht so, wie Sie haben, jetzt. 00:38:47.965 --> 00:38:52.705 So, ich bin nicht sicher, Sie wollen, aber es ist etwas wie das. Not wirklich. 00:38:54.025 --> 00:38:56.605 Nonetheless, wir haben nicht getroffen, wo wir wollen es zu gehen. 00:38:56.965 --> 00:38:59.345 Und ich habe gedacht, und ich habe versucht, das zu recherchieren. 00:38:59.485 --> 00:39:03.905 Und ich habe das, dass, eigentlich, es hat sich angefangen in den 50er Jahren. 00:39:03.905 --> 00:39:09.645 The last spate of real breakthroughs, microwaves, the pill, I can't remember, 00:39:09.885 --> 00:39:11.485 lasers, we're all in the 50s. 00:39:11.625 --> 00:39:22.205 And since then, it's largely been applying existing technologies to new consumerist purposes. 00:39:22.745 --> 00:39:27.225 For example, in the movie 2001, the only technology that we actually did get 00:39:27.225 --> 00:39:29.145 was the video phones, right? 00:39:29.985 --> 00:39:33.945 Aber in fact, Videophones, die erste Videophone, do you know where the first Videophone comes from? 00:39:34.445 --> 00:39:38.565 In the 30s? Ja, ja, in the 30s. In the German Post Office, actually, 00:39:38.685 --> 00:39:39.885 debuted the first Videophone. 00:39:40.645 --> 00:39:43.105 Nobody wanted one. It was just a guess. Ja, you're right. 00:39:44.725 --> 00:39:47.405 But nobody wanted it, because nobody wanted people to see what they looked like 00:39:47.405 --> 00:39:52.085 when they got up in the morning. Still today. Ja. And so, 00:39:53.678 --> 00:40:00.178 So, what happened? And first I thought, well, it does seem, it has to do with 00:40:00.178 --> 00:40:07.058 what I was saying earlier. There was a shift in priorities of investment in the 1970s and 80s. 00:40:07.198 --> 00:40:11.758 And largely this happened in America because a lot of that space age, 00:40:11.958 --> 00:40:15.198 people have said that the Apollo 00:40:15.198 --> 00:40:19.878 moon landing was the greatest historical achievement of Soviet communism. 00:40:20.158 --> 00:40:24.158 And that's probably true. There's no reason to believe America ever would have 00:40:24.158 --> 00:40:25.838 done that had it not been for the Russians. 00:40:26.218 --> 00:40:30.158 The Russians had their own very interesting reasons for pursuing the space program. 00:40:30.698 --> 00:40:34.698 I don't know if you know about the biocosmic immortalists. There's a whole theory 00:40:34.698 --> 00:40:38.778 that they were going to bring the proletarian back from the dead eventually 00:40:38.778 --> 00:40:40.118 and make people immortal. 00:40:40.318 --> 00:40:43.738 But then where do you put them all? So that's why they had to go to other worlds. 00:40:45.938 --> 00:40:47.898 But they were a lot more interesting than we think. 00:40:51.998 --> 00:40:57.438 Anyway, be this as it may, once the Soviets were no longer a threat to the U.S., 00:40:57.438 --> 00:41:00.098 they kind of said, okay, we don't need to do that stuff anymore. 00:41:00.278 --> 00:41:06.518 And there was a shift to essentially technologies that marked the complete victory 00:41:06.518 --> 00:41:12.218 of the overall, not just the international Cold War, but the class war. 00:41:12.218 --> 00:41:15.978 I mean, these information technologies, medical technologies. 00:41:16.218 --> 00:41:18.978 And, you know, they didn't cure cancer, but they developed a lot of things that 00:41:18.978 --> 00:41:21.278 make you, like, not go crazy from working too hard. 00:41:21.538 --> 00:41:26.578 You know, Prozac, Ritalin, so forth and so on. And they... 00:41:28.967 --> 00:41:33.087 So I thought, okay, there's a change in direction of technology away from that 00:41:33.087 --> 00:41:37.767 stuff, but even then they were still working on, you know, the reason we don't 00:41:37.767 --> 00:41:42.067 have robots that will do your laundry for you and, you know, 00:41:42.327 --> 00:41:49.827 clean the bathroom is because 95% of robotics tech research is done by the military. 00:41:50.147 --> 00:41:52.867 So that's why we have drones and, you know, things like that. 00:41:52.987 --> 00:41:57.367 But even there, right, we don't have giant killer robots who are shooting death 00:41:57.367 --> 00:42:00.167 rays from their eyes, right? You know they've been working on that. 00:42:00.347 --> 00:42:05.007 They've been throwing all the resources they can into getting Star Trek weaponry. It doesn't work. 00:42:06.167 --> 00:42:11.427 So even the things they have been investing in, the pace of technological discovery 00:42:11.427 --> 00:42:13.367 is much slower and less efficient. 00:42:13.547 --> 00:42:16.107 So there has to be a deeper explanation. 00:42:16.507 --> 00:42:20.167 So I started talking to a lot of people involved in scientific research, 00:42:20.167 --> 00:42:23.447 and what they all said was pretty much the same. 00:42:23.467 --> 00:42:27.687 They said it's interesting, too, because they all agree with me. 00:42:27.687 --> 00:42:30.927 A lot of the science buffs say, you're this idiot, he knows nothing about science. 00:42:31.127 --> 00:42:34.087 When I talk to actual scientists, they say, yeah, that's true. 00:42:36.927 --> 00:42:38.827 But the problem is bureaucracy. 00:42:41.747 --> 00:42:46.867 Essentially, scientists are expected to spend at least 50% of their time applying 00:42:46.867 --> 00:42:48.907 for and managing money for these huge grants. 00:42:49.907 --> 00:42:54.567 And the grants, you know, are based on the assumption that you already know 00:42:54.567 --> 00:42:59.107 what you're going to do. Who is like if you want to kill scientific creativity, 00:42:59.747 --> 00:43:02.667 I mean I think the easiest way to think of it is this. 00:43:03.367 --> 00:43:06.187 You know if you want to sort of 00:43:06.187 --> 00:43:11.567 maximize the possibility of unexpected breakthroughs. You know it's not. 00:43:13.106 --> 00:43:15.346 Ich war es nicht rocket science, aber ich glaube, es ist es. 00:43:16.166 --> 00:43:18.306 Es ist ziemlich obvious, was du. 00:43:18.706 --> 00:43:23.766 Du hast einen Kreativ-People, du sie in einen Raum, oder du sie einfach machen, 00:43:24.306 --> 00:43:25.726 was sie für fünf oder zehn Jahre. 00:43:25.866 --> 00:43:28.306 Du sie sie brauchen, sie sie tun, sie sich mit ihnen zu tun. 00:43:28.666 --> 00:43:32.106 Aber basically, du sie sie allein. Und, you know, viele von ihnen will kommen 00:43:32.106 --> 00:43:35.666 mit nichts, aber ein paar von ihnen will kommen mit etwas, dass sie nicht mehr haben. 00:43:37.186 --> 00:43:41.126 Und wenn du sie wollen, die Möglichkeit, die Möglichkeit von Breakthroughs zu 00:43:41.126 --> 00:43:43.786 haben, Get those same people and tell them, 00:43:44.286 --> 00:43:48.426 all right, none of you get any resources at all unless you spend most of your 00:43:48.426 --> 00:43:53.006 time trying to prove to me that you already know what you're going to get. 00:43:53.366 --> 00:43:56.586 Great, you know. And that's basically the system we have now, you know. 00:43:56.786 --> 00:43:59.846 I mean, it's almost designed to make sure we don't come up with breakthroughs. 00:43:59.966 --> 00:44:02.266 Well, that's a rather dark prospect for the future. 00:44:03.586 --> 00:44:08.386 You argue in your book that technological change can be postponed at the expense 00:44:08.386 --> 00:44:13.126 of freedom and alternative ways to live or work, but in the end, 00:44:13.266 --> 00:44:18.526 you cannot prohibit it to the end of time. No, no, it happens anyway, yeah. 00:44:18.946 --> 00:44:22.966 I mean, they're trying their best to make it not happen, but it's a very interesting 00:44:22.966 --> 00:44:27.286 paradox because one of the things that I found fascinating when I was trying 00:44:27.286 --> 00:44:31.226 to write this, I remember around 2000, actually, I noticed this the first time, 00:44:31.903 --> 00:44:37.983 ist, wenn 2000-2001 happened, ich dachte, dass da all diese Reflexion auf, 00:44:38.003 --> 00:44:41.623 wie wir nicht haben die Sachen in der Film 2001 haben. 00:44:42.163 --> 00:44:47.283 Nothing like that happened. All die Artikeln das kamen, das wir eigentlich leben 00:44:47.283 --> 00:44:50.023 in dieser Age von unprecedented Technologischen Marvelen. 00:44:50.863 --> 00:44:54.863 Und ich realize, in a way, there ist ein strange, in der System, 00:44:54.923 --> 00:44:59.063 in order to maintain itself, es hat sich zu geben, die sense, 00:44:59.183 --> 00:45:01.143 dass da constant Technologische Progress ist. 00:45:01.143 --> 00:45:04.683 But it can't actually give them the sense that there's constant technological 00:45:04.683 --> 00:45:07.963 progress because if things are going to be changing radically, 00:45:08.343 --> 00:45:09.723 that has social implications. 00:45:10.123 --> 00:45:12.943 You know, it means that, you know, they have to make the argument that this 00:45:12.943 --> 00:45:15.523 is the only social arrangement that could possibly exist. 00:45:15.823 --> 00:45:20.983 But, you know, if our actual physical social possibilities were changing incredibly 00:45:20.983 --> 00:45:24.823 rapidly, well, it would be almost impossible to maintain that idea. 00:45:25.083 --> 00:45:30.463 So, in fact, I came up with this idea that postmodernism, The whole postmodern 00:45:30.463 --> 00:45:34.263 sensibility is really based on that paradox. 00:45:34.843 --> 00:45:39.303 It all occurred to me when I went to see one of those Star Wars prequels. 00:45:40.283 --> 00:45:42.643 And I was watching the movie. It was a terrible movie. 00:45:44.103 --> 00:45:51.203 It was really bad. But I remember thinking, wow, these special effects are very impressive. 00:45:51.503 --> 00:45:57.043 And I thought back to these 50s and 60s sci-fi movies where there's creatures pulled on strings. 00:45:57.203 --> 00:46:00.723 And it was just so obviously fake. Und ich dachte, dass die Leute in den 50ern, 00:46:00.723 --> 00:46:04.403 wenn sie diese Spezial-Effekte sehen würden, sie würden sehr beeinflusst. 00:46:05.220 --> 00:46:08.640 And I thought, wait a minute. No, they wouldn't. They thought we'd actually 00:46:08.640 --> 00:46:10.040 be doing this stuff by now. 00:46:10.420 --> 00:46:14.600 All we've done is come up with really, really good ways to simulate it. 00:46:14.900 --> 00:46:19.020 And I thought, oh, simulation, hyper-real, things more real than real, 00:46:19.220 --> 00:46:23.660 appearances more real than reality, end of history, ironic repetition. 00:46:23.940 --> 00:46:28.340 It all makes sense. You know, the postmodern sensibility was really our reflection 00:46:28.340 --> 00:46:31.820 on the fact that all these people were brought up to assume that they were going 00:46:31.820 --> 00:46:36.480 to be living in an age of technological marvels, and all they got was techniques of simulation. 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:39.320 But they couldn't actually admit, you know, because if you say, 00:46:39.460 --> 00:46:42.560 I thought we'd have flying cars, and, you know, everybody's going to say, 00:46:42.660 --> 00:46:46.820 oh, you stupid idiot, that was sci-fi, you weren't supposed to believe that. 00:46:47.240 --> 00:46:51.360 And, you know, so they couldn't publicly admit how disappointed they were. 00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:55.180 So, it kind of came out in this indirect cultural form. 00:46:55.540 --> 00:47:02.760 Okay, but just let me repeat my questions, because we need some hope here. Oh, I've got that. 00:47:03.160 --> 00:47:07.700 So, how can we overcome those structural deficits? Well, I think it's already happening. 00:47:07.900 --> 00:47:12.420 I mean, since I wrote that essay, a lot of things have already changed. 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:19.640 And a lot of that is through the fact that even though universities are no longer 00:47:19.640 --> 00:47:23.600 places for the kind of offbeat eccentric and impractical thinkers. 00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:32.380 That tend to drive change. On the other hand, a lot of those guys are now living 00:47:32.380 --> 00:47:33.260 in their mother's basements. 00:47:34.420 --> 00:47:36.960 They can communicate to each other in their mother's basements. 00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:43.760 There are sort of technologies emerging not from the internet itself, 00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:45.860 but from the fact that people can talk to each other over the internet. 00:47:46.040 --> 00:47:51.380 You have things like 3D printing starting to emerge. A lot of those new things actually exist. 00:48:18.693 --> 00:48:21.833 Wie in jeder Folge möchten wir am Ende noch ein Buch empfehlen. 00:48:23.133 --> 00:48:27.153 Und wenn wir schon bei der Kritik an System sind, lege ich Ihnen dieses Mal 00:48:27.153 --> 00:48:29.193 einen Roman von Stephanie Barth ans Herz. 00:48:29.953 --> 00:48:35.373 Er ist 2023 unter dem Titel Erzählung zur Sache im Sezession Verlag erschienen 00:48:35.373 --> 00:48:39.813 und gibt uns Einblicke in die Weltsicht der RAF-Terroristin Gudrun Ensslin. 00:48:40.513 --> 00:48:44.433 Barth zeichnet eine Art Gefühlsporträt im vorwiegend freier indirekter Rede. 00:48:44.873 --> 00:48:50.653 Man ist nah dran an Ensslins Denken, an ihren inneren Rechtfertigungen, an ihrer Radikalität. 00:48:51.333 --> 00:48:55.413 Wobei die sprachliche Wucht an die Ästhetik des Widerstands von Peter Weiß erinnert. 00:48:56.273 --> 00:49:02.593 Die Handlung führt uns in die 1970er Jahre, zum RF-Anschlag auf die US-Militärbasis 00:49:02.593 --> 00:49:05.933 in Heidelberg und in Ensslins Zeit im Stammheimer Gefängnis. 00:49:07.678 --> 00:49:12.338 Der fast 700 Seiten starke Text stützt sich dabei zu einem großen Teil auf historische 00:49:12.338 --> 00:49:16.898 Dokumente und Schriften der linken Theorie, weshalb er durchaus als linksradikales 00:49:16.898 --> 00:49:18.218 Plädoyer gelesen werden kann. 00:49:19.138 --> 00:49:23.438 Manchen könnte er gar zum besseren Verständnis heutiger Widerstandsbewegungen verhelfen. 00:49:24.338 --> 00:49:27.698 Stefanie Barth, die von Hause aus Ethnologin und Politikwissenschaftlerin ist, 00:49:28.198 --> 00:49:30.078 spart die Taten der RF keinesfalls aus. 00:49:30.278 --> 00:49:33.538 Doch will sie mit ihrem politischen Roman weniger verurteilen, 00:49:33.698 --> 00:49:36.058 als ein Gesamtbild des Protests wiedergeben. 00:49:36.818 --> 00:49:41.038 Denn am Ende geht es ihr um die Sache und damit um nichts Geringeres als um 00:49:41.038 --> 00:49:43.858 die Würde des Menschen, die unantastbar sein sollte. 00:49:44.238 --> 00:49:48.478 Und um eine Zukunft, in der alle zusammenhalten und niemand zurückgelassen wird. 00:49:49.118 --> 00:49:54.358 Und so ziert allein die Parole für das Leben gegen den Tod in schwarzer Schrift 00:49:54.358 --> 00:49:56.498 den Rücken des scharlachroten Bucheinbands. 00:49:56.858 --> 00:50:01.038 Das hinterlässt Eindruck. Und hätte David Graeber sicher auch sehr gefallen. 00:50:02.218 --> 00:50:05.258 Ich hoffe, Sie haben diese neue Folge von Retweetweet genossen. 00:50:06.058 --> 00:50:08.578 Sollte dem so sein, empfehlen Sie diesen Podcast gern weiter. 00:50:09.178 --> 00:50:11.478 Wir freuen uns, wenn Sie bald wieder reinhören. 00:50:13.698 --> 00:50:18.058 Read, Read, Read ist ein Podcast vom Internationalen Literaturfestival Berlin. 00:50:18.698 --> 00:50:24.858 Redaktion Nora Mengel, das bin ich. Marleen Klaas ist unsere Producerin. Musik Janik Werner. 00:50:25.478 --> 00:50:27.238 Artwork Katharina Dörr. 00:50:28.218 --> 00:50:32.538 Bürokratie, die Utopie der Regeln ist 2016 in der deutschen Übersetzung von 00:50:32.538 --> 00:50:36.138 Hans Freundl und Henning Dedekind im Klett-Kotter-Verlag erschienen. 00:50:36.898 --> 00:50:42.298 Erzählung zur Sache von Stefanie Barth wurde 2023 im Sezession-Verlag veröffentlicht. 00:50:43.238 --> 00:50:46.638 Wir danken ganz besonders unserem Gastgeber, dem Haus der Berliner Festspiele, 00:50:46.798 --> 00:50:48.718 und unserem Host, Philipp Grassmann. 00:50:49.078 --> 00:50:53.878 Das ILB ist ein Projekt des eingetragenen Trägervereins Peter Weiß Stiftung für Kunst und Politik. 00:50:54.298 --> 00:50:58.398 Es wird gefördert durch den Hauptstadtkulturfonds. Dieser Podcast im Rahmen 00:50:58.398 --> 00:51:02.678 des Jubiläumsprogramms Ein Vierteljahrhundert Weltliteratur wurde ermöglicht 00:51:02.678 --> 00:51:05.798 durch die Lotto-Stiftung Berlin und die Jan-Michalski-Stiftung.